Israel declares war on Hamas

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by curves2000

The global community has an opportunity to literally fix this problem once things officially calm down. A mediated and concrete settlement with BOTH sides literally winning and losing significant aspects of important things to them.

I will repeat that the world needs to solve this problem for this region, global security is at risk and far too important for these two groups to literally not be able to solve it. 8 or 9 decades of this conflict is plenty.

The problem is that a not insignificant portion of the world does not want to solve the crisis. Iran, Syria, Russia and certain factions in the US (and likely more) are actively stoking the conflict and have been for decades.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

K ur right, Israel is good to just continue indiscriminately bombing civilians and putting out dystopian ads to rile up support for genocide by smoothbrains.

Sorry I hurt your feelings with my opinions.

It would be easier to take your opinions more seriously if your comments weren't dripping in snark and sarcasm and you were actually trying to see the conflict in all it's gory details instead of picking a side and defending them at all costs, like it's just an online fight for internet points.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

While issues of West Bank are important on their own right, I'm still waiting for someone to explain, how they are relevant to the current war. Gazans/Hamas actually hate West Bank/Fatah. Gazans killed or expelled West Bank authorities from Gaza, and West Bank authorities, in response, supported the blockade of Gaza. People make it sound like Hamas is revenging for Israel crimes at West Bank. But this argument fails because Hamas and West Bank hate each other.

To me it is because the settlements show Israel may say one thing, that "they want peace" but their actions show them tough to trust, by slowly taking the West Bank with settlements. The international community has spoken out against this for years. Anyway, that type of thing wouldn't solve this current issue but it certainly has been an aggravating factor over the years. One to me that seems totally against the idea of being for peace. Stop taking what isn't yours. It seems a simple thing.

[Red Slinger]

If everything went back to the '67 borders, do we think there would still be peace? I don't. It doesn't justify the Settlements because nothing really can. But it does explain the mindset of Israel: no matter what they do their neighbors want to wipe them out because they are there.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Don't sell yourself short!

I don't mean to single you out in a negative way. You are one of a few who's response has been (or at least it seems to me) to primarily criticize Israel. Don't get me wrong, Israel deserves a lot of criticism but that didn't just start on Oct.7 and prompt this thread and spirited discussion. What prompted it was Hamas attacking civilians in Israel.
-snip-

I don't mean to heap all blame on Israel, it's just that it should be pretty obvious what Hamas did was wrong and is hideous. Do I need to hammer on about that? #### Hamas. But understanding psychologically what led them to this is more interesting to me. That is, of course, where it gets far more complicated and muddy.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I don't know why people keep bringing up Egypt, as if what Egypt does make it right. And Israel currently has 2000 Palestinians in custody without charge.

People are bringing Egypt because of the following. Palestinians talk about Israelies blockading Gaza because they are racists, treat Palestinians like dirt, have different religion, colonization mindset, are occupiers and so on. But none of it applies to Egypt, yet Egypt blockades Gaza too. Something doesn't add up.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

If everything went back to the '67 borders, do we think there would still be peace? I don't. It doesn't justify the Settlements because nothing really can. But it does explain the mindset of Israel: no matter what they do their neighbors want to wipe them out because they are there.

Right, and that's what I mean. They do not seem to want any solution that involves Israel not being "whole." The least of which is sharing Jerusalem. So how can they be trusted as an honest partner, when their goal seems at odds with any solution? And the other side does not recognize the existence of Israel and won't stop until it doesn't exist. Neither side seems prepared for any solution that doesn't involve death.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

It would be easier to take your opinions more seriously if your comments weren't dripping in snark and sarcasm and you were actually trying to see the conflict in all it's gory details instead of picking a side and defending them at all costs, like it's just an online fight for internet points.

His first reply to me was an unhinged whinefest in response to an extremely confusing video. It didn't deserve better.

In response to your greater concern, I'm not sure why I even have to qualify every post with "Hamas also bad." The entire point of this is that Israel has the might, money, and power to stop this at any time, and has been in this position for 50+ years. It's blatantly obvious however that Likud is using this as an excuse to wipe out as many people and as much infrastructure as they are able to farm social license for.

The constant media manipulation and trying to equate Hamas with ISIS is very much for the International Audience to continue giving them the thumbs-up to keep up the good work. There's no need to Both Sides this, it doesn't need to be said in every breath that TERRORISM IS BAD AND CHILD MURDER IS ALSO BAD just to qualify my opinions that THE GUYS WITH ALL THE MONEY AND JETPLANES AND COMFORTABLE LIVES KILLING PEOPLE LIVING IN A BOXED IN SLUM IS ####ED UP AND BAD.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

To me it is because the settlements show Israel may say one thing, that "they want peace" but their actions show them tough to trust, by slowly taking the West Bank with settlements. The international community has spoken out against this for years. Anyway, that type of thing wouldn't solve this current issue but it certainly has been an aggravating factor over the years. One to me that seems totally against the idea of being for peace. Stop taking what isn't yours. It seems a simple thing.

Israel used to have settlements in Gaza too, before 2005. At 2005 Israel disbanded all its settlements in Gaza, withdrew all its army, and let Gazans elect their own government. They elected Hamas and here we are. The reason why Israel keep colonizing West Bank is because if they don't, they will get another Gaza.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Israel used to have settlements in Gaza too, before 2005. At 2005 Israel disbanded all its settlements in Gaza, withdrew all its army, and let Gazans elect their own government. They elected Hamas and here we are. The reason why Israel keep colonizing West Bank is because if they don't, they will get another Gaza.

Is that OK? Is that the only solution? Does it make the situation better or worse?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

The entire point of this is that Israel has the might, money, and power to stop this at any time, and has been in this position for 50+ years.

By doing what?

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Incredibly sad seeing these innocent people being wiped out.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712548404050669837

That is sad to watch.

Good to see the lights and power on there, wonder if it is on a generator, and has a strong supply of fuel?

Of all the things going on, it sure would be good if the hospitals were able to fully operate, with a solid supply of materials, equipment, and personnel.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

They literally did this for months in 2019. Palestinians staged non violent vigil protests and after a few days the IDF shot hundreds of them, killing 223.

The world did not care or notice.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018...order_protests

I guess, this is Gazans idea of "non-violent protests". All quotes are from the article you linked, mostly from Timeline section:



In February 2018, four IDF soldiers were injured by an explosive device concealed in a Palestinian flag placed on the Gazan border fence during a Palestinian protest.[69][70]

In one incident, two Palestinian gunmen approached the fence, armed with AK-47 assault rifles and hand grenades, and exchanged fire with IDF soldiers. They were killed and their bodies were recovered by the IDF.[81][82][83]

Palestinian member of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) was shot by Israeli forces after he breached the fence and entered Israel

59 or 60 Palestinians were shot dead at twelve clash points along the border fence.[37] Hamas claimed 50 of them as its militants,[38][39] and Islamic Jihad claimed 3 of the 62 killed as members of its military wing.[40]

On the evening of 8 April, according to the IDF, three Palestinians infiltrated the fence in the Northern Gaza strip, planted two explosive devices, and then quickly returned to Gaza. The IDF fired at the Palestinians with tank fire.[113]

In the early morning of 9 April, the IDF said it attacked a military compound belonging to Hamas in the northern Gaza strip in response to the attempted infiltration with explosives. The IDF said Hamas "is solely responsible for what is happening in the Gaza Strip from above and below the ground".[114]

On the morning of 11 April, Palestinians set off a bomb near an Israeli construction vehicle adjacent to the Gaza fence. The IDF fired tank shells at positions that it said belonged to Hamas.[115]

On 12 April, Israeli aircraft attacked Hamas targets in the northern Gaza Strip in retaliation for the previous days' bomb attack close to the border fence. Hamas fighters east of Shuja'iyya targeted the aircraft with machine gun fire, and several of the bullets fell on a home in Israel. An Israeli airstrike targeted them, killing one Hamas fighter and wounding another. The Hamas fighter who was killed was identified as Mohammed Hamada Hijila. It was subsequently reported that he had taken part in an infamous raid on an Israeli border post in which five Israeli soldiers had been killed during the 2014 Israel-Gaza conflict.[116][117][118]

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Israel's released photos of the beheaded and burned infant bodies in the aftermath of the Hamas attacks. Best to be careful the links you click on if you don't want to see that.

FWIW there has been no actual evidence of beheaded children, and a lot of officials who had originally claimed to see photos of such have either corrected that statement or stopped talking about it, and the photos Israel released do not contain beheaded children.

Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, just that nobody outside the IDF solider that originally claimed it has been able to confirm it actually happened.

Originally Posted by Pointman

A gentle reminder that Israel did not sign a convention that bans using white phosphorus in civilian areas:

A gentle reminder that condescendingly justifying a war crime is still justifying a war crime.

Originally Posted by Pointman

Many people, including you, keep bringing up some killings, illegal settling and other crimes, that Israel allegedly does at West Bank. This appears to present Hamas actions as some kind of revenge for Israelis killing West Bank citizens.

As has been explained several times, nothing is meant to “justify” or present Hamas actions a certain way, it’s meant to show why Palestinians (who is also in West Bank) feel the way they do. Jewish people from all over the world are rallying behind Israel after a terrorist attack, because they feel a connection to them, and you’re pretending to be confused as to why Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank (less than an hour away) might have a connection or feel the treatment of one is relevant to the treatment of the other.

Also, aside from the fact that it’s been explained several times why the West Bank has been brought up, this contradiction is completely hilarious:

Originally Posted by Pointman

While issues of West Bank are important on their own right, I'm still waiting for someone to explain, how they are relevant to the current war.

Originally Posted by Pointman

People are bringing Egypt because of the following. Palestinians talk about Israelies blockading Gaza because they are racists, treat Palestinians like dirt, have different religion, colonization mindset, are occupiers and so on. But none of it applies to Egypt, yet Egypt blockades Gaza too. Something doesn't add up.

What doesn’t add up is the odd lies and manipulative language you rely on. None of the above applies to Egypt because we’re not talking about Egypt and because some of the items literally do not apply to Egypt,, and we certainly can talk about Egypt, but pretending that West Bank is unrelated (and acting like nobody has explained why it is) while repeatedly bringing up Egypt is dishonest and gross.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Is that OK? Is that the only solution? Does it make the situation better or worse?

Let me open by saying that Israel's occupation of West Bank is illegal. It's also understood that such colonization entails violent tensions. With hate running deep in West Bank, murders are definitely happening, and while they are mutual, Jews are not even remotely innocent in that.

So the solution, it seems so at first, would be for Israel to disband settlements, withdrew its citizens and military, and let West Bank citizens elect their own government.

The problem is, this is exactly what Israel did in Gaza in 2005. Left to their own devices, Gazans promptly elected Hamas into government with a stated goal of destroying Israel, and eventually got what they wanted - a war with Israel. Now Gazans are without water, electricity and food. They are being bombed and have nowhere to go. They probably would be better off now, if Israel never withdrew and never disbanded its illegal settlements in Gaza.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

By doing what?

I'm not a policy wonk with all the answers, but I certainly know the answer isn't to shake my head, say "what a shame they brought this upon themselves" and look away.

Personally my pie in the sky never gonna happen solution is to get rid of the Ethnostates entirely and integrate into a one-state solution, but zealots and hardliners on both sides would never acquiesce to it.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What doesn’t add up is the odd lies and manipulative language you rely on. None of the above applies to Egypt because we’re not talking about Egypt and because some of the items literally do not apply to Egypt,, and we certainly can talk about Egypt, but pretending that West Bank is unrelated (and acting like nobody has explained why it is) while repeatedly bringing up Egypt is dishonest and gross.

Cool. So you can explain why Egypt blockades Gaza, right?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I'm not a policy wonk with all the answers, but I certainly know the answer isn't to shake my head, say "what a shame they brought this upon themselves" and look away.

Personally my pie in the sky never gonna happen solution is to get rid of the Ethnostates entirely and integrate into a one-state solution, but zealots and hardliners on both sides would never acquiesce to it.

Isn't it exactly what Israel did? 2 millions of Arabs, about as many as live in Gaza, live in Israel and are citizens of Israel. You know, that in Israel they have schools that teach in Arabic.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Cool. So you can explain why Egypt blockades Gaza, right?

Sure, they’re scared of Hamas and Iranian influence, and believe Gaza to be Israel’s issue to deal with, because Israel is the occupier and controls the vast majority of the border including the sea and the sky, and they have little interest relieving that pressure from Israel.

Can you explain why you think Egypt’s one border is worth repeatedly bringing up when Israel controls most other aspects of life in Gaza?

[kirant]

So, in the spirit of keeping news here as well (and a brief search of "evacuate" didn't yield this being posted before, so apologies if this is old news):

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ef-2023-10-12/

Israel called on Friday for all civilians in the northern half of the Gaza Strip, more than 1 million people, to relocate south within 24 hours, as it amassed tanks for an expected ground assault in response to an attack by the militant group Hamas.

Hamas, which controls the strip, told residents to stay put, and vowed to fight to the last drop of blood. By Friday afternoon there was no sign of any mass exodus as Israel prepared its onslaught.

Absolute insanity on both ends. Israel giving an impossible task to relocate (later in the article, the US calls it a "tall order" and the UN argues it impossible given the power/water/supply shortage) and Hamas being 100% counterproductive to their own population's safety.