Israel declares war on Hamas

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

If you are willing to go beyond the headlines, I'd say yes.

Israel is open and inclusive enough to have a homophobe politician and yet still hold at least 2 Gay Pride parades (if not 4, I'm not sure if there are parades in Eilat or Haifa).

Is Canada or the US any more or less inclusive because both countries have homophobe politicians (hello Sask.) and yet also have Gay Pride parades and free speech.

Canada allows gay marriage, as do many US states

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No, bringing up West Bank disputes the statement “Except that Jews are not removing anyone from their homes,” which is not just misleading but an outright lie. Suggesting that it is only brought up to enable criticism of Israel is misleading. Suggesting that the West Bank and the issues there have little relevance to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or less relevance than near half of what you’ve happily discussed is misleading. You repeatedly correct people and engage in discussion that is not related to the thread, but whenever you are corrected or someone brings up something related, you suggest they’re off topic, spreading propaganda, misleading, or that their intentions are otherwise nefarious. That’s absurd.

The West Bank issues are very important in their own right. However, they only muddle the discussion, which is complicated enough as it is. The reason is that many arguments that are factually correct about Gaza are not factually correct about West Bank. And because term "Palestinians" is often used, it results in misunderstanding. For example, Jews are not removing anyone from their homes in Gaza and in no way interested in taking land of Gaza for themselves. This is perfectly correct statement. Now replace Gaza with West Bank and this statement is wrong.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Except Abbas and the leaders of the Palestinian Authority have consistently declared in both Arabic and English that there will be no Jews allowed to stay and live in a Palestinian state. So it's not quite OK.

The Israelis did essentially what you describe with Gaza. They left. They took their people and left the buildings, green houses, and farms to the citizens of Gaza and wished them peace and prosperity. Hamas had/has a different wish and since they had the guns and ordinary citizens (and PLO officials) didn't, what Hamas says goes. Hamas usually says things with guns and rockets. Hence blockades, banned items, etc.

Earning trust back on both sides to get to the point you want is going to be extremely difficult.

Except that the IDF destroyed many/most homes that housed Israelis once they left because they believed that the buildings were too good for the Palestinians.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

One thing Goldstein seems to have gotten right, Likud sucks and Israeli's know it

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712440165317124234

He is not going to survive this. Unlike what others may think Israelis criticize their own government more than anyone else. It has never been anti-semitic to criticize Israel. It is however anti-semitic to assert Jews are not indigenous to the land. I have always been anti-settlements and believe they get Israel absolutely no where with regards to peace. I have wanted Netanyahu out for years. I have zero issue with Palestinians in the West Bank and would gladly welcome a far more moderate Israeli government with little religious interference from the orthodox community.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Eh... Abbas is an 85 year old senile idiot. He's well past his best before date.

He's also a politician that says things for many reasons. Mostly to gain an upper hand in negotiation.

I think this is a great point. Politicians on both sides say things to further themselves politically. You can't take anything a politician says on its face value or as a means of determining what a population's, as a whole, views are.

Both Netanyahu and Abbas love to give lip service to hardliners in order to win votes and political influence.

Both Israel and Palestine, politically, are suffering from a lot of the problems that plague our politics. We're stuck with outdated political parties, political paradigms, and politicians. Paralyzed by a left vs right and us vs them dichotomy that hasn't existed in decades. Old men in their 70s and 80s are trying to solve problems they have no hope of comprehending.

[MRCboicgy]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

If you are willing to go beyond the headlines, I'd say yes.

Israel is open and inclusive enough to have a homophobe politician and yet still hold at least 2 Gay Pride parades (if not 4, I'm not sure if there are parades in Eilat or Haifa).

Is Canada or the US any more or less inclusive because both countries have homophobe politicians (hello Sask.) and yet also have Gay Pride parades and free speech.

And Tel Aviv pride was amazing, I'd rank it behind Sydney for its fun and inclusivity

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Probably worth noting that’s not exactly how that went, as Israeli’s and Palestinians alike destroyed a lot of what was “left” as Israeli’s moved out and constant border closures for vague “security concerns” meant that only 10% of the agricultural exports could get out on any given day, which severely handicapped the industry.

Yeah....those "security concerns" from the Gaza Strip certainly are unfounded and vague. We should put quotes around them, because no Israelis could ever actually get attacked by people from Gaza.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

The West Bank issues are very important in their own right. However, they only muddle the discussion, which is complicated enough as it is. The reason is that many arguments that are factually correct about Gaza are not factually correct about West Bank. And because term "Palestinians" is often used, it results in misunderstanding. For example, Jews are not removing anyone from their homes in Gaza and in no way interested in taking land of Gaza for themselves. This is perfectly correct statement. Now replace Gaza with West Bank and this statement is wrong.

I disagree, the West Bank doesn’t “muddle” the discussion, it is a relevant and essential part of the discussion. You cannot understand the Israeli-Palestinian conflict without understanding West Bank, and you cannot understand the Gaza-Israel issues without understanding the broader Israeli-Palestinian conflict, period. This isn’t pulling on some 2000 year old debate about who the original people’s were or who had religious or ethnic right to the land, which you’ve been happy to entertain, it’s an actual, immediately relevant part of the conversation.

[FlamesAddiction]

I understand why people are pro-Palestinian when it comes to issues regarding their desire for statehood and human rights issues. As pointed out, there are people in Israel who support the same causes and are critical of Israel's approach and the peace process. That's totally fair.

What I don't get is that literally in the middle of what any rational person would call a terrorist attack, people were saying they stand with Palestinians. Hamas was still actively slaughtering people, and you have people coming out waving Palestinian flags and celebrating it as a win for Palestinians. That doesn't come across as pro-Palestinian, it comes across as pro-Hamas, just hidden beneath a thinly veiled pro-Palestinian semantic.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Pointman

The West Bank issues are very important in their own right. However, they only muddle the discussion, which is complicated enough as it is. The reason is that many arguments that are factually correct about Gaza are not factually correct about West Bank. And because term "Palestinians" is often used, it results in misunderstanding. For example, Jews are not removing anyone from their homes in Gaza and in no way interested in taking land of Gaza for themselves. This is perfectly correct statement. Now replace Gaza with West Bank and this statement is wrong.

This is really interesting and didn't really think that israelis viewed it as two separate issues.

To Palestinians, issues in the West Bank are just as important as issues in Gaza. In the same way as, if there was an invasion happening in Ontario, people in Alberta wouldn't just dismiss at and move on with their lives.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

Yeah....those "security concerns" from the Gaza Strip certainly are unfounded and vague. We should put quotes around them, because no Israelis could ever actually get attacked by people from Gaza.

Who called them unfounded and who suggested the latter? Seriously, the “everyone who I don’t agree with is an anti-semitic supporter of Hamas” angle is adding nothing to the conversation, and if you have nothing useful to add you could simply attempt to add less.

Israeli concerns about the possibility of weapons or explosives being smuggled from Gaza were underlined when on 26 April 2006 Palestinian police reportedly intercepted a truck carrying explosives headed for Karni; the crossing was closed for four days as a result of this. However, those of us who visited Karni in 2005 were told that most closures are unrelated to incidents in the vicinity and that the crossing is frequently shut in response to violence in the West Bank, or for no reason at all.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=p1e...page&q&f=false

The Karni border crossing during this time period is specifically relevant to the disengagement process, which is what the comment was regarding.

[WCW Nitro]

At least this time Israel isn't being subtle about targetting civilians, they're literally saying yes we will starve civilians in Gaza. Even Western politicians/media are like wtf.

[Doctorfever]

Hopefully we don’t see any bloodshed, like what is being called for by Khalid Mashal the leader and founding member of Hamas. Thankfully the police appear to be prepared.

This conflict is likely to spill into more places than just the areas involved, hopefully Canada isn’t one of those places.

https://torontosun.com/news/local-ne...riday-the-13th

It’s a stark reminder of the reality of the world right now. With all of the politics going on where people are posting their views on social media, this is another example of leadership by police to remember public safety for everybody is paramount.

It needs to be said. The temperature in Canada needs to be dialed down. All leaders should denounce what this Hamas leader has called for and there should be no support for terror organizations who have clearly crossed the line by committing heinous war crimes.


Khalid Mashal the leader and founding member of Hamas gave a speech today asking Muslims all around the world to do the following:

1. To show anger, especially next Friday, in Muslim countries and Also among Muslim diaspora around the world; he called it “the Friday of Al-Aqsa flood”, he said this will send a message of rage to Zionists and to America

2. He asked for financial help from all Muslims around the world; to help with their money, he called it “Financial Jihad”. He asked Muslims to give to the fighters of Gaza in order to compensate them for the destruction

3.He asked political pressure, from Muslim leaders and Muslim nations, to stop Israel’s military invasion of Gaza

4.The most important thing: He asked all Muslims around the world to carry Jihad by their souls; to fight and be martyrs for Al-Aqsa.
He wants Muslims to fight against the Jews, starting with Muslims who live in the countries surrounding Israel: Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt (but also other countries), to go to the borders and try to enter, each by his own means. He said: This is the time for Jihad to be applied on the ground rather than just in theory. He asked the Mujahedeen to go in long caravans to spell their blood on the land of Palestine.

These are his final words:

Funds are important but today we are asking for your blood and souls [to be sacrificed for Palestine]

[TheIronMaiden]

nm

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

At least this time Israel isn't being subtle about targetting civilians, they're literally saying yes we will starve civilians in Gaza. Even Western politicians/media are like wtf.

I think the severity of the initial Hamas attack gave Isreal carte blanche on their response.

Not that I agree with whatever is coming next from Israel's side but as the old adage goes, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


Honestly, I don't think Israel's gonna stop this time. I don't think they're going to stop until they've annexed all of the land and completely close all their borders.and there ain't much anyone's going to do much about it except work to get those Gazans out who want out.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

At least this time Israel isn't being subtle about targetting civilians, they're literally saying yes we will starve civilians in Gaza. Even Western politicians/media are like wtf.

Simple take that is just ignoring the fact that Egypt is also blockading and Israel has said free the hostages and total blockade will stop. Hamas doesn’t appear to be willing to negotiate so what’s the incentive for Israel? Hamas wanted to provoke a response and they got it.

[Bleeding Red]

Unfortunately DoctorFever it has already begun.

According to Toronto Chief of Police 3 Arab men accosted a group of girls near a Jewish high school telling the girls they were going to bomb the school tomorrow (Friday), that they have weapons (upon police search, they did not), and to be scared.
Possible charges are pending. - Source - United Jewish Appeal Security Update.

And of course, parents will now keep their kids home from school tomorrow.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Unfortunately DoctorFever it has already begun.

According to Toronto Chief of Police 3 Arab men accosted a group of girls near a Jewish high school telling the girls they were going to bomb the school tomorrow (Friday), that they have weapons (upon police search, they did not), and to be scared.
Possible charges are pending. - Source - United Jewish Appeal Security Update.

And of course, parents will now keep their kids home from school tomorrow.

This is ####ing horrible

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Unfortunately DoctorFever it has already begun.

According to Toronto Chief of Police 3 Arab men accosted a group of girls near a Jewish high school telling the girls they were going to bomb the school tomorrow (Friday), that they have weapons (upon police search, they did not), and to be scared.
Possible charges are pending. - Source - United Jewish Appeal Security Update.

And of course, parents will now keep their kids home from school tomorrow.

Brutal.
With social media nowadays, I bet lots of kids have seen images and videos of what went on over there. Now someone is intimidating you….

Awful.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Simple take that is just ignoring the fact that Egypt is also blockading and Israel has said free the hostages and total blockade will stop. Hamas doesn’t appear to be willing to negotiate so what’s the incentive for Israel? Hamas wanted to provoke a response and they got it.

I don't know why people keep bringing up Egypt, as if what Egypt does make it right. And Israel currently has 2000 Palestinians in custody without charge.