Alberta students to define their own gender

[peter12]

Delete.

[peter12]

I don't need a commissar to tell me otherwise.

One of my close friends, and his wife are very traditional Catholics. They have three kids, two girls, and the youngest, a boy. The little chap has taken to wearing a purse in public, probably taking after his sister. No one minds, and everyone thinks it is cute. The idea is that his nature is immanent within his origins, and will develop healthily with education about his obligations to himself, and his family.

On the converse side of this issue, there is a very creepy social movement towards pushing children towards making decisions about their sexuality and gender far before puberty.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by peter12

On the converse side of this issue, there is a very creepy social movement towards pushing children towards making decisions about their sexuality and gender far before puberty.

Why is that creepy?

The word pushing is an aggressive choice of words too.

Don't know if that's even true either.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Why is that creepy?

The word pushing is an aggressive choice of words too.

Don't know if that's even true either.

Creating public policy that will enforce new guidelines perfectly encapsulates what any normal person would describe as "pushing."

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Then homeschool your kids.

Very constructive contribution. The guy is just saying he doesn't like governments stepping in like this, and I happen to agree with him.

I think schools and schoolboards are better at dealing with the issues inside their own walls.

[peter12]

I actually think that home-schooling is a very valid, and increasingly, desirable option for many intelligent parents.

[craigwd]

Originally Posted by codynw

I got it from the original post of this thread.

Exactly. And that's what I was referring to.
Vox pulled that out of thin air and later mentioned it was a concern of his.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by craigwd

Exactly. And that's what I was referring to.
Vox pulled that out of thin air and later mentioned it was a concern of his.

If that's the case and it's not true, then ignore me.

I support the rest of this. It was just the gender neutral terms at all times thing that I didn't get.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Why is that creepy?

The word pushing is an aggressive choice of words too...

Because children may not be mature enough to make certain decisions. Adults with authority (parents, kindergarten, schools, Government) make most decisions for children all along their childhood years for that exact reason. Gender identity is a very complicated matter and, frankly, is not the most important matter in the overall scheme of things. The new protocol has a potential of pushing children to think that it's very important to make these choices without having the maturity level and experience that's needed to make them. It is dangerous and unnecessary.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by peter12

Creating public policy that will enforce new guidelines perfectly encapsulates what any normal person would describe as "pushing."

Uh, this is the case with everything in public school systems. Where do you think these standards come from?

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Very constructive contribution. The guy is just saying he doesn't like governments stepping in like this, and I happen to agree with him.

I think schools and schoolboards are better at dealing with the issues inside their own walls.

Actually, schools and schoolboards have demonstrated they aren't better at dealing with these issues which is why things like Gay Straight Alliances and now this are having to come from the Province.

Like teaching trigonometry to 13 year olds, if you don't like it you're free to remove your child from publicly subsidized education and teach them yourself.

[Looch City]

Isn't sex-ed taught before puberty? I had it in grade 4 I believe. That hasn't raised any issues...

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Because children may not be mature enough to make certain decisions. Adults with authority (parents, kindergarten, schools, Government) make most decisions for children all along their childhood years for that exact reason. Gender identity is a very complicated matter and, frankly, is not the most important matter in the overall scheme of things. The new protocol has a potential of pushing children to think that it's very important to make these choices without having the maturity level and experience that's needed to make them. It is dangerous and unnecessary.

Especially with the increased pressure to undertake risky biomedical interventions.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Because children may not be mature enough to make certain decisions. Adults with authority (parents, kindergarten, schools, Government) make most decisions for children all along their childhood years for that exact reason. Gender identity is a very complicated matter and, frankly, is not the most important matter in the overall scheme of things. The new protocol has a potential of pushing children to think that it's very important to make these choices without having the maturity level and experience that's needed to make them. It is dangerous and unnecessary.

Not the most important matter? Try telling that to a little boy who feels like a girl. It can be the key to their happiness in a lot of cases. And I'm pretty sure this isn't going to effect the vast majority of "normal" children. A boy who is born a boy, who identifies as a boy, who finds girls yucky and dresses ugly isn't going to be sat down and asked what gender he prefers. The confused ones, who raise questions naturally, act "different", who bring up feelings of not wanting to be a boy, that will be where the decisions are made.

Children are taught sex ed in the lowers grades, I think I watched a video of child birth in grade 5 at the age of 10. God lord. Speaking of creepy. We didn't need to see that.

They're not making any lasting permanent decisions here. No one chopping off a tiny penis and turning it into a vagina at these ages. Yes, the onslaught of puberty will happen at some point but even that can be delayed for several years when a child in 10-13 to further delay and major decision, allowing them to mature mentally.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Uh, this is the case with everything in public school systems. Where do you think these standards come from?

Actually, schools and schoolboards have demonstrated they aren't better at dealing with these issues which is why things like Gay Straight Alliances and now this are having to come from the Province.

Like teaching trigonometry to 13 year olds, if you don't like it you're free to remove your child from publicly subsidized education and teach them yourself.

Well, it is pretty obvious that you see schools as some sort of indoctrination camp instead of you know, a place where young people are educated. Different perspectives, I suppose.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Not the most important matter? Try telling that to a little boy who feels like a girl. It can be the key to their happiness in a lot of cases. And I'm pretty sure this isn't going to effect the vast majority of "normal" children. A boy who is born a boy, who identifies as a boy, who finds girls yucky and dresses ugly isn't going to be sat down and asked what gender he prefers. The confused ones, who raise questions naturally, act "different", who bring up feelings of not wanting to be a boy, that will be where the decisions are made.

Children are taught sex ed in the lowers grades, I think I watched a video of child birth in grade 5 at the age of 10. God lord. Speaking of creepy. We didn't need to see that.

They're not making any lasting permanent decisions here. No one chopping off a tiny penis and turning it into a vagina at these ages. Yes, the onslaught of puberty will happen at some point but even that can be delayed for several years when a child in 10-13 to further delay and major decision, allowing them to mature mentally.

Sure thing, chappie. Leave it to parents not school commissars enforcing a particular bureaucratic-speak style of tolerance.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by peter12

Well, it is pretty obvious that you see schools as some sort of indoctrination camp instead of you know, a place where young people are educated. Different perspectives, I suppose.

Thanks for conceding, I was getting bored of this too.

[PepsiFree]

It's always a bit interesting when nobody questions the instilling of classical gender values from a very VERY early age but as soon as those values are questioned the response becomes "kids aren't mature enough for gender!"

I have yet to see someone raise their child as completely gender-neutral until they were "mature" enough to decide.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Uh, this is the case with everything in public school systems. Where do you think these standards come from?

Actually, schools and schoolboards have demonstrated they aren't better at dealing with these issues which is why things like Gay Straight Alliances and now this are having to come from the Province.

Like teaching trigonometry to 13 year olds, if you don't like it you're free to remove your child from publicly subsidized education and teach them yourself.

While I think you make a good point about the GSA's and individual school boards failure in many schools, I still believe you are giving Peter a rough ride and should maybe give him the benefit of the doubt. I can't profess to speak for him nor would I defend him if he starts going on about how sinful these little transgendered monsters are.

What I am reading from him, and Peter correct me if I am misinterpreting, is that the province is making this issue to be decided by the kids at a young age. While on the whole I have no problem with the policies designed to help prevent discrimination and exclusion of transgendered individuals, I think it is important to not force children to make decisions that may be beyond their scope of understanding.

On the other hand, I think it appears much of this document is meant for teachers, principals and admin staff and is meant to train the people in charge to remove many of their inherent biases towards grouping kids into their versions of boy/girl.


Edit:

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It's always a bit interesting when nobody questions the instilling of classical gender values from a very VERY early age but as soon as those values are questioned the response becomes "kids aren't mature enough for gender!"

I have yet to see someone raise their child as completely gender-neutral until they were "mature" enough to decide.

I wanted to include this because I replied while you posting. However I think we've seen from some anecdotal evidence in this thread that young kids don't really understand adults conformity to gender roles. If a kid wants to identify as a boy but the other kids aren't likely to mind, even if some parents would see her as a she. I would hope the province is instructing schools to remove some of these gender roles to help avoid influencing kids. There appear to be some concerns that this new law will in fact force kids to identify with one gender or another before they've ever realized what they are.

[peter12]

I think that might be because it is impossible - especially when you ask bureaucrats to do it.

[PsYcNeT]

I'm pretty sure the whole concept of gender-fluidity is predicated on having the option of not making a permanent decision, regardless of your age.

But I'm sure the detractors here knew that, what with all of the experience they have interacting with the transgenedered/gender-fluid.