[PGT] Predators defeat Flames 5-1, Dec. 2nd

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by traptor

man this was a fun year.
I forgot how young they all were. What could of been...

# Player Name Pos. GP G A Pts PIM +/- GP G A Pts PIM Birthplace Age

13 Johnny Gaudreau L 82 40 75 115 26 64 12 3 11 14 2 NJ: Salem 28

19 Matthew Tkachuk L 82 42 62 104 68 57 12 4 6 10 20 AZ: Scottsdale 23

28 Elias Lindholm C 82 42 40 82 22 61 12 5 4 9 6 Sweden: Boden 26

88 Andrew Mangiapane L 82 35 20 55 38 20 12 3 3 6 10 ONT: Toronto 25

4 Rasmus Andersson D 82 4 46 50 28 30 12 3 3 6 23 Sweden: Malmo 24

55 Noah Hanifin D 81 10 38 48 19 27 12 0 3 3 4 MA: Boston 24

Could've just said Darryl Sutter.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Yeah, I know. I already went through all that. It sucked for a long time. It was hard to enjoy the team until they made the playoffs for the first time and were given a prompt exit by John Tavares and the Islanders. Even after they became legitimate, it was tough sledding for a few years with multiple early playoff exits.

But I was there at the beginning. As I said before, even after they drafted Barkov and Huberdeau, there was a season where Nick Bjugstad was their leading scorer with 38 points. That's not a typo. That was with those two young stars on the team. It was ugly. It sucked. There's no sugar coating how hard it is to cheer for a rebuilding team.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s surprising to me how many fans really deeply underestimate this. It’s much easier if you’re one of those casual observers who can just check out for seasons at a time, but for the people who actually enjoys the wins and the progress and suffer the losses, oof.

Worth it in the end? You hope so. But that’s why it’s important to enjoy what little you can on the way, because you never really know.

it’s not hard to imagine a reality where Florida goes through all that and never wins a cup.

There are no guarantees in sports. Ever. I get that.

The Flames could go through a full rebuild with good drafting, good trades, good development, good coaching, do everything right... and still not win a cup.

That's life. There's no guarantees. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Because the alternative is bouncing back and forth between early playoff exits and missing the playoffs by 1-2 points every year until the end of time.

And honestly, I've had my fill of that.

[PepsiFree]

I don’t think anyone is saying don’t try.

[Mathgod]

Good to hear we're on the same page then.

[Locke]

Pepperidge Farms was saying it!

[PepsiFree]

Isn’t everyone in that case though?

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Isn’t everyone in that case though?

Hopefully.

But there still seems to be some sentiment around here of "don't trade any vets" and "shame on anyone who cheers for losses".

Cheering for losses isn't my style. But I wouldn't blame anyone who does it at this point. Finishing last or near last is the clearest path to acquiring elite talent. Might not work out the way we want it to, but again I don't see any better options right now.

[Inferno]

I don't think people are saying don't trade any vets. They're saying trade them when you get the right offer and don't act like trading with the Calgary Flames is like Black Friday all the time.

There's people on here who don't seem to care what the Flames get back. They just want players gone because they're paranoid they're going to play themselves out of a top 3 spot.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Confession: I don’t find regular-season hockey entertaining to watch. Full-stop. Haven’t for many years. I follow hockey during the regular season by reading articles and analysis, following stats, etc., and watching maybe 10 or 12 full games in the regular season (some of which don’t involve the Flames).

I follow hockey because of the playoffs. The pace, intensity, emotion, and stakes are so, so much higher that it’s almost a different sport. I watch 1-2 games a night almost every night of the playoffs, including lots of games that the Flames aren’t participating in. That’s the juice.

So from my POV, a regular season finish just outside the playoffs is no better than a regular season finishing at the bottom of the league. It’s worse, in fact, because of how it impacts the draft. At this point as a fan, my primary wish is for the team to draft an elite core than can contend for the Cup and go on deep playoff runs for 5-10 years. To that end, regular season results only matter insofar as they impact draft position.

That’s probably not how most fans approach the team. But I expect I’m not alone, either.

100% agreed. This perfectly captures my approach as well. Just not that interested in watching anymore, it’s really not an interesting product.

Watching my son play hockey >>>>>>>>>> NHL hockey, not even close. I know that’s not necessarily a fair or relevant comparison, but even watching WHL or AHL hockey is way more entertaining generally. Stopping at some rink if you catch a AAA team that’s like 15 or older, like those are people trying and working and making mistakes which is just way more interesting to watch if you love the game which I do.

When it comes to the Flames it’s like/ call me when you’re relevant again and that means go get a superstar and that means bottom out.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Hopefully.

But there still seems to be some sentiment around here of "don't trade any vets" and "shame on anyone who cheers for losses".

Cheering for losses isn't my style. But I wouldn't blame anyone who does it at this point. Finishing last or near last is the clearest path to acquiring elite talent. Might not work out the way we want it to, but again I don't see any better options right now.

I don’t think anyone has suggested not trading any of the vets. And cheering for losses remains silly considering it has zero impact on the outcome.

[Mathgod]

Well the other day there were people suggesting we should sign Andersson long term and not trade him. Considering the kind of return we would get in a trade, and the fact that he helps the team win games right now, means that keeping him beyond this trade deadline would hurt the rebuild in two ways.

If people don't want a vet like Andersson traded, to me it signals that they are still clinging to the win-now mentality. Do they also want to keep Kadri? Coleman? Two guys who could really put a cup contender over the top, and would fetch us very nice returns.

As for fan reactions not affecting outcomes, that's kind of the point. Let people enjoy the rebuild years in any way they see fit. If cheering for losses is what some want to do, good for them.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Hopefully.

But there still seems to be some sentiment around here of "don't trade any vets" and "shame on anyone who cheers for losses".

Cheering for losses isn't my style. But I wouldn't blame anyone who does it at this point. Finishing last or near last is the clearest path to acquiring elite talent. Might not work out the way we want it to, but again I don't see any better options right now.

Who is saying “don’t trade any vets”? I have never seen anyone post anything like that

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

100% agreed. This perfectly captures my approach as well. Just not that interested in watching anymore, it’s really not an interesting product.

Watching my son play hockey >>>>>>>>>> NHL hockey, not even close. I know that’s not necessarily a fair or relevant comparison, but even watching WHL or AHL hockey is way more entertaining generally. Stopping at some rink if you catch a AAA team that’s like 15 or older, like those are people trying and working and making mistakes which is just way more interesting to watch if you love the game which I do.

When it comes to the Flames it’s like/ call me when you’re relevant again and that means go get a superstar and that means bottom out.

Watching live it is junior hockey all the way for me. I go to a lot of 67’s games with my son. Costs me 35 bucks a game for the two of us. He has a jersey, is passionate about the team and can name most of the players. I can take him to 20 games in a year for 700 bucks total in seats that I would be able to go to 2 NHL games max in.

I take him to one NHL game and it costs me 250 bucks for far worse seats. NHL is just simply unaffordable unless you are a business and 50% is a write off.

[fotze2]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

100% agreed. This perfectly captures my approach as well. Just not that interested in watching anymore, it’s really not an interesting product.

Watching my son play hockey >>>>>>>>>> NHL hockey, not even close. I know that’s not necessarily a fair or relevant comparison, but even watching WHL or AHL hockey is way more entertaining generally. Stopping at some rink if you catch a AAA team that’s like 15 or older, like those are people trying and working and making mistakes which is just way more interesting to watch if you love the game which I do.

When it comes to the Flames it’s like/ call me when you’re relevant again and that means go get a superstar and that means bottom out.

Kids in hockey kinda ruins fandom for you. The hockey development journey is a thousand times more fascinating to watch than an NHL game. If a friends kid is playing against the Flames, I'm definitely cheering against the flames. But if he's playing for the Flames, that is awesome. Jamieson and Basha were a nice surprise.

Wanting things doesn't change the outcome. Wanting losses doesn't make it more likely they lose, so why do people wring their hands over it. We are at the low of the rollercoaster, and you need that to maybe someday appreciate the high.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Well the other day there were people suggesting we should sign Andersson long term and not trade him. Considering the kind of return we would get in a trade, and the fact that he helps the team win games right now, means that keeping him beyond this trade deadline would hurt the rebuild in two ways.

If people don't want a vet like Andersson traded, to me it signals that they are still clinging to the win-now mentality. Do they also want to keep Kadri? Coleman? Two guys who could really put a cup contender over the top, and would fetch us very nice returns.

As for fan reactions not affecting outcomes, that's kind of the point. Let people enjoy the rebuild years in any way they see fit. If cheering for losses is what some want to do, good for them.

For people who actually watch and enjoy the games, Andersson is a fan favourite. I personally wouldn’t read anything more than wanting to keep Andersson into wanting to keep Andersson, so the position that wanting to keep a fan favourite must mean they don’t want to trade any vets seems strange to me. Do you have some actual instances of people saying the latter you could reference?

Are you suggesting that losses fill you with joy? I think most people accept or suffer the losses, knowing there is a worthwhile consolation prize at the end. I suspect your view is more popular with people who solely follow the team and read text summaries and stat lines, since seeing a loss show up on a box score is quite a bit more bland than actually sitting through one.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

"Look there's some youth, therefore your opinion is totally invalid."

Well the argument isnt about the non-existence of young players, its about this ever persisting proclivity of the team to lean on its vets to an inordinate degree regardless of performance before giving similar opportunities to their younger counterparts.

2 weeks of Gridin, Honzek, Parekh and Kuznetsov (after taking the roundabout way of sending him down when he was ready on day 1 only to stumble into the that realization through forcing worse more experienced alternatives for far too long when the answer was under their noses) is a pretty meager contingent of youth for a team in an unofficial rebuild.

Zary and Coronato have been around a couple of seasons now so they aren't in the recent promotions category any more.

That Kuznetsov promotion could have happened a lot sooner and it required Miro and Bean fumbling their opportunities and some injuries to pave the way for it to happen.

The point is rookies cracking the big team should not be this arduous and lengthy of a process, especially considering the current state of the organization.

Hopefully moving a couple of bodies and solidifying themselves as a bottom 3 team fixes this issue, but we will have to see.

Gridin made the team out of camp, but was sent down. Seems to be working great.

You can't discount Zary and Coronato because they are now older, because how could they be here this year two years older if they didn't get a chance when they were young two years ago?

Honzek came up, won a spot and stayed. It doesn't make the team anti-youth because he got hurt.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Confession: I don’t find regular-season hockey entertaining to watch. Full-stop. Haven’t for many years. I follow hockey during the regular season by reading articles and analysis, following stats, etc., and watching maybe 10 or 12 full games in the regular season (some of which don’t involve the Flames).

I follow hockey because of the playoffs. The pace, intensity, emotion, and stakes are so, so much higher that it’s almost a different sport. I watch 1-2 games a night almost every night of the playoffs, including lots of games that the Flames aren’t participating in. That’s the juice.

So from my POV, a regular season finish just outside the playoffs is no better than a regular season finishing at the bottom of the league. It’s worse, in fact, because of how it impacts the draft. At this point as a fan, my primary wish is for the team to draft an elite core than can contend for the Cup and go on deep playoff runs for 5-10 years. To that end, regular season results only matter insofar as they impact draft position.

That’s probably not how most fans approach the team. But I expect I’m not alone, either.

I watch pretty much every game. This year is a tough watch though. Really tough. I know the team not being able to score is a big factor, but I also wonder if I still have 'muscle' memory from the Jays run. Their playoff run was so intense and exciting to watch. Everything else just seems meh now.

[GioforPM]

So we've got people in favour of tanking saying they've checked out until there's a superstar on the roster. It doesn't take much imagination to think of a fan who says "I am getting rid of my seasons tickets until they are trying to win again". Which I think is what the messaging about not using the word "rebuild" is all about - trying to avoid fans doing that. It may be dumb on their part, but not exactly beyong a guy like Edwards to try and gaslight that way.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Nobody should be telling you how to enjoy your fandom of the Flames. Cheer for losses hoping for a better draft pick and more wins in the season to come? Sure. Go do that if you want. Not only is there nothing wrong with it, but it makes complete sense.


Just understand that coming on a forum and posting that you hope that the Flames lose tonight and every night is really annoying. It isn't like nobody understands WHY you are cheering for losses, but it still rather tasteless to openly cheer for losses. Not hard to understand why there is push-back, right? You really have to be a troll not to understand that.


I do think the math works out with respect to trading the vets early. If the Flames manage to rebound and end up finishing 20th overall, I do not think they can move up into the top 3 by including their first round pick plus every single asset that came back in a Kadri + Andersson + Coleman trade. Teams just want quality at the top, period. I would be really upset if the Flames traded down to 12th after having the 1st overall pick, almost regardless of the return. So yes, the math works out - it is more important to ensure a bottom 3 finish than worrying about the returns for the vets.


However, the Flames are LAST with these vets. Seems to me that Conroy can be very patient, no? What are we afraid of here right now? Flames are 32nd right now - and just got whooped by the last place team. I think we can just ignore any angst that we may have about ensuring the team gets gutted enough to finish last - it is there now. Heck, maybe if they trade these vets out, it will inject too much youth into the team, and they really start out-performing expectations again, right?


Things are moving in the right direction. Your cheers - either for wins or for losses - are doing squat. No need to go and proclaim that we need to cheer for losses - that's just incredibly annoying. No point in telling people that they are wrong for cheering for losses, and that they are 'not true fans' if they do - that's incredibly silly too. Just a lot of silliness going around lately, but it is understandable. This is the first time that I have ever remembered the Flames being in last place. New territory, and we aren't the 'pros' and dealing with like those greasy fans up north are. Those guys are experts at this. We are all noobs, so let's just have a little patience with one another.

[Kidder]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So we've got people in favour of tanking saying they've checked out until there's a superstar on the roster. It doesn't take much imagination to think of a fan who says "I am getting rid of my seasons tickets until they are trying to win again". Which I think is what the messaging about not using the word "rebuild" is all about - trying to avoid fans doing that. It may be dumb on their part, but not exactly beyong a guy like Edwards to try and gaslight that way.

But this is why there’s literally no better time to do a proper tear down rebuild right now.

I know multiple people with season tickets who have acquired them recently simply because they want to ensure they have dibs for the new arena.

They are not forgoing their tickets because the team sucks. They want to be ticket holders in the new building.

So this year, next year, and year one of new rink.

Three seasons where ticket holders are locked in no matter the results of the team.