Cheifs Threaten Train Blockades on June 29

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by arsenal

If they did decide to not honour the agreement, would you expect full compensation for breaking such agreement, to the point where you are given hand outs, not only for you, but for your grandchildrens-children-children? Say the reservations starting make more money, and your 4th generation grandchildren then come to Cheifs and ask for more money because said agreement was dishonered 4 generations ago.
And you have no problem with that, is that what you are getting at?

I'll take whatever I can get for as long as I can get it if someone breaks that agreement. And if I happen to negotiate that my family gets certain things then I expect them to take whatever they can get as well, and forever, if that's how the contract was written.

Do you think you'd do otherwise? If your great-grandfather organized some sort of deal that saw a cheque land in your bank account every month, are you telling me you'd refuse it on general principle?

That's the funny thing about attitudes like this -- the Indians are trying to get what they can. The most money, land, rights, whatever they can get, and people bitch about it to no end. Then they go to work the next day and they try to get the most money, land, rights or whatever for the least amount of work, and it's a pat on the back.

[CaramonLS]

Their old potlatchs are an example and they still follow similar traditions but in our world this is a deadly sin.

Bullcrap. How is a potlatch considered a "deadly sin"? There are not any laws forbidding the potlatch anymore.

They're troubles are indications of being focked over by our European civilization. How many suicides, alcoholics, drug abusers, and prisoners were there before we destroyed them.

You mean their ancestors? On events that happened Hundreds of years ago?

Members of my family were killed by Nazi soldiers (great uncles and aunts), but guess what? Life goes on and I don't resent the current generation of Germans, nor will I demand compensationfrom them for the actions of Hitler.

Originally Posted by Vulcan

But instead of laying blame on them and us, lets try to give them a chance and let them regain their pride. With your attitude, they're beat before they start, pretty sick.

How would you like us to help them regain their pride? By ignoring the numerous social problems caused by some Native Americans (at a much higher proportion than the rest of the population) which are spilling over into society? Saying the things I said are not racist or stereotyped generalizations, they are cold, hard facts.

I've said before I judge every person by their own individual merit. Don't try to assume things here. I give each and every person regardless of age, gender, race, sexual orientation their own chance before I judge them. You assume way too much.

Do you think I hate Native Americans or something? Or not want to give them a hand up in society? Pointing out some of their problems isn't racist.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Pointing out some of their problems isn't racist.

No, but idenfiying those problems as being a result of their ethnicity is.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Bullcrap. How is a potlatch considered a "deadly sin"? There are not any laws forbidding the potlatch anymore.


******The potlatch was an example of their sharing atittude, which is looked on as strange and incomprehensible and pretty much a sin, in our capitalistic society.



You mean their ancestors? On events that happened Hundreds of years ago?

Members of my family were killed by Nazi soldiers (great uncles and aunts), but guess what? Life goes on and I don't resent the current generation of Germans, nor will I demand compensationfrom them for the actions of Hitler.

****** You suffered loses but your society wasn't destroyed as theirs was.



How would you like us to help them regain their pride? By ignoring the numerous social problems caused by some Native Americans (at a much higher proportion than the rest of the population) which are spilling over into society? Saying the things I said are not racist or stereotyped generalizations, they are cold, hard facts.

I've said before I judge every person by their own individual merit. Don't try to assume things here. I give each and every person regardless of age, gender, race, sexual orientation their own chance before I judge them. You assume way too much.

Do you think I hate Native Americans or something? Or not want to give them a hand up in society? Pointing out some of their problems isn't racist.

*****I'm pretty much of the idea that they should solve their own problems with whatever help we can give them and they are taking steps, both individually and in groups. I don't think they trust us much anymore.

I'm glad you don't hate them, sorry if I got that impression from your posts but you've been pretty loose lipped here and in another thread on this topic.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'll take whatever I can get for as long as I can get it if someone breaks that agreement. And if I happen to negotiate that my family gets certain things then I expect them to take whatever they can get as well, and forever, if that's how the contract was written.

Do you think you'd do otherwise? If your great-grandfather organized some sort of deal that saw a cheque land in your bank account every month, are you telling me you'd refuse it on general principle?

That's the funny thing about attitudes like this -- the Indians are trying to get what they can. The most money, land, rights, whatever they can get, and people bitch about it to no end. Then they go to work the next day and they try to get the most money, land, rights or whatever for the least amount of work, and it's a pat on the back.

Fair argument.
Would I refuse free money? Nope. It would be really really nice to have as a supliment to my current income actually. The main difference is, I also have a job, and work for the money, land, rights or whatever I have.
I also don't threaten my employeer (extort may be a better word) if I don't feel I am getting a big enough share of the profit.

no one is stopping the Indians from getting out and going to school, getting an education but themselves. If more would get out and make something of themselves, and integrate into the community, and stop "blaming the white man", then the prejudice wouldn't exist.

[daveyboy]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Bullcrap. How is a potlatch considered a "deadly sin"? There are not any laws forbidding the potlatch anymore.



You mean their ancestors? On events that happened Hundreds of years ago?

Members of my family were killed by Nazi soldiers (great uncles and aunts), but guess what? Life goes on and I don't resent the current generation of Germans, nor will I demand compensationfrom them for the actions of Hitler.



How would you like us to help them regain their pride? By ignoring the numerous social problems caused by some Native Americans (at a much higher proportion than the rest of the population) which are spilling over into society? Saying the things I said are not racist or stereotyped generalizations, they are cold, hard facts.

I've said before I judge every person by their own individual merit. Don't try to assume things here. I give each and every person regardless of age, gender, race, sexual orientation their own chance before I judge them. You assume way too much.

Do you think I hate Native Americans or something? Or not want to give them a hand up in society? Pointing out some of their problems isn't racist.

My band (Cree) doesn't have potlatches as they're mostly a NW Coast thing, especially with the Tling'it and The Kwak'itl. They may be legal now but the tradition and practice was completely decimated for almost a century by the colonialists and the church. Sure they're not illegal anymore but so much of the knowledge and lore of the potlatch was stolen, even to speak about it was forbidden. A deadly sin? probably not, but they were outlawed and like so much in our culture that knowledge and practice was decimated and is only know finally starting to make a resurgance.

Oh and just for the record, I wear very nice clothes on the train and I don't drink.

[jammies]

It's ironic that back in the 80's, Canada would not trade with South Africa due to apartheid, yet today we still have, with the native reserve system, de facto apartheid.

One day the system will have to end; nothing is forever and the time for reserves has long gone. The idea of reserves was flawed to begin with - you cannot expect people who were, in the main, hunter/gatherers, and whose culture was derived from that way of life, to take up sedentary, aimless life in (relatively) tiny wedges of land and to preserve their values. The high rates of drug abuse, alcoholism, suicide and violence are the results of this original flaw - there is no future on the reserve because the system denies change, institutionalizes dependency, and defines you as what you are born instead of what you could become.

I personally think that the solution would be to allow anyone alive today to continue on the reserve, but future residents (and those who currently live there, and choose to do so) would get a lump sum at 21 paying out both their land claims and treaty rights, and would then lose their treaty status. Then, 99 years from today, all treaty land reverts to the government.

Unfortunately, this would undoubtedly need to be imposed by the federal gov't, as it is unlikely the native leaders (or population, for that matter) would agree to these measures. Despite knowing that the system in general is destroying Native lives, it is human nature to resist the loss of privilege.

Somehow the gov't would have to convince the rest of Canada that not only is this the right way to go forward, but that it is an important enough issue to invoke the tyranny of the majority. The country would be fiercely divided, and it would take generations before the furor would be forgotten.

I doubt the time is yet right for this, although if something like the proposed train blockade blows up into full-scale confrontation, you never know what might happen...

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by jammies

It's ironic that back in the 80's, Canada would not trade with South Africa due to apartheid, yet today we still have, with the native reserve system, de facto apartheid.

One day the system will have to end; nothing is forever and the time for reserves has long gone. The idea of reserves was flawed to begin with - you cannot expect people who were, in the main, hunter/gatherers, and whose culture was derived from that way of life, to take up sedentary, aimless life in (relatively) tiny wedges of land and to preserve their values. The high rates of drug abuse, alcoholism, suicide and violence are the results of this original flaw - there is no future on the reserve because the system denies change, institutionalizes dependency, and defines you as what you are born instead of what you could become.

I personally think that the solution would be to allow anyone alive today to continue on the reserve, but future residents (and those who currently live there, and choose to do so) would get a lump sum at 21 paying out both their land claims and treaty rights, and would then lose their treaty status. Then, 99 years from today, all treaty land reverts to the government.

Unfortunately, this would undoubtedly need to be imposed by the federal gov't, as it is unlikely the native leaders (or population, for that matter) would agree to these measures. Despite knowing that the system in general is destroying Native lives, it is human nature to resist the loss of privilege.

Somehow the gov't would have to convince the rest of Canada that not only is this the right way to go forward, but that it is an important enough issue to invoke the tyranny of the majority. The country would be fiercely divided, and it would take generations before the furor would be forgotten.

I doubt the time is yet right for this, although if something like the proposed train blockade blows up into full-scale confrontation, you never know what might happen...

I think we should take away all the whitemen's land, give them some money and just allow those still living in these homes to stay but after 99 years it all reverts to the Red Nation. That should solve this whiteman problem. Yeah, one time this system will have to end.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by arsenal

no one is stopping the Indians from getting out and going to school, getting an education but themselves. If more would get out and make something of themselves, and integrate into the community, and stop "blaming the white man", then the prejudice wouldn't exist.

I think it's more complicated then nothing is stopping them but themselves. For many the environment they grow up stops them. How easy is it to break free from life on the reservation when you've grown up with that way of life being the norm?

Some people have made the argument that immigrants who have come to this country with nothing have made something of themselves so why can't the natives? But that is flawed because the immigrants coming to this country have something that the natives who choose to do nothing more then sniff gas on the reservation will never have - motivation.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

I think it's more complicated then nothing is stopping them but themselves. For many the environment they grow up stops them. How easy is it to break free from life on the reservation when you've grown up with that way of life being the norm?

Some people have made the argument that immigrants who have come to this country with nothing have made something of themselves so why can't the natives? But that is flawed because the immigrants coming to this country have something that the natives who choose to do nothing more then sniff gas on the reservation will never have - motivation.

And where does that motivation come from?

[Resolute 14]

I might say "hope" is a better word than "motivation".

The sense of entitlement is another problem. Most immigrants come to Canada expecting that they will have to earn their keep. Natives get their money whether they earn it or not.

One thing I would like to see native leaders do is tie the cheques their people get into education and the like. Instead of free money to do whatever, direct some, or all, of that money towards scholarships, college educations. Give a kid the opportunity to make something of himself, and he will be more likely to do something productive with his life.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by daveyboy

My band (Cree) doesn't have potlatches as they're mostly a NW Coast thing, especially with the Tling'it and The Kwak'itl. They may be legal now but the tradition and practice was completely decimated for almost a century by the colonialists and the church. Sure they're not illegal anymore but so much of the knowledge and lore of the potlatch was stolen, even to speak about it was forbidden. A deadly sin? probably not, but they were outlawed and like so much in our culture that knowledge and practice was decimated and is only know finally starting to make a resurgance.

Oh and just for the record, I wear very nice clothes on the train and I don't drink.

Well, it wasn't me who made that last comment...

And yes, I am familar with some of the history involving the outlawing of such traditions.

I also once met a nice Native man (about 60) who was taking advantage of his oppurtunity to learn in an anthropology class. Those are always options, and while you can never completely recreate the past you can learn as much as you can from it. There is a wide variety of literature you can utilize.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

One thing I would like to see native leaders do is tie the cheques their people get into education and the like. Instead of free money to do whatever, direct some, or all, of that money towards scholarships, college educations. Give a kid the opportunity to make something of himself, and he will be more likely to do something productive with his life.

My uncle follows all this stuff where he lives in Saskatchewan and he was telling me about these two tribes that both received a rather large payment from the feds. For the life of me I can't remember what specifically the money was for, but it doesn't really matter. The tribes were in very close proximity to each other, actually separated by a highway at one point. The leaders of one tribe took all the money and distributed it evenly to everyone in the tribe (around hundred thousand each). The leaders of the other tribe kept all the money and spent it basically on infrastructure for the reserve (education etc.). Now before this the tribes were both at around the same level. Well the tribe gave everyone a fair share basically nosed dived and the other tribe was doing great. Most people in the first tribe just wasted their money. While the other tribe kept and is still building up it's educational services. The difference is night and day. He said when you drove on the highway you could tell which tribe was which by the all abandoned cars on the one side.

Unfortunately not all leaders are as just with the money as this one. But it does go to show that with the right attitude it can be turned around.

[CaramonLS]

I think the old saying "Idle Hands are the Devil's tools" can explain some of this...

Rouge, while we should honor the argeement we have, what good is it doing right now and will it improve their condition in the future?

If the Canadian government gave all these land claims/money the band leaders wanted, would it help the situation? When you support someone completely, you drain their motivation for life in a lot of cases - and that issue is only getting worse and propagating through generations. Would your parents let you live under their roof forever?

You give people a pile of money and expect them to create a hunter-gatherer society in a world of processed food and access to everything they need to survive... Well, it doesn't work.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Unfortunately not all leaders are as just with the money as this one. But it does go to show that with the right attitude it can be turned around.

Yup. And it should be noted that this isnt a native problem, but a human nature problem. One of my best friends is a complete screwup because he has this massive sense of entitlement. He's never really had to earn anything in his life, so he can't appreciate the value of it.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

I might say "hope" is a better word than "motivation".

The sense of entitlement is another problem. Most immigrants come to Canada expecting that they will have to earn their keep. Natives get their money whether they earn it or not.

One thing I would like to see native leaders do is tie the cheques their people get into education and the like. Instead of free money to do whatever, direct some, or all, of that money towards scholarships, college educations. Give a kid the opportunity to make something of himself, and he will be more likely to do something productive with his life.

So he/she can come off the reserve to be looked down upon, fear riding the c-train because they will be stereotyped as drunks? Put yourself in their shoes and see how easy that would be.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Burninator

My uncle follows all this stuff where he lives in Saskatchewan and he was telling me about these two tribes that both received a rather large payment from the feds. For the life of me I can't remember what specifically the money was for, but it doesn't really matter. The tribes were in very close proximity to each other, actually separated by a highway at one point. The leaders of one tribe took all the money and distributed it evenly to everyone in the tribe (around hundred thousand each). The leaders of the other tribe kept all the money and spent it basically on infrastructure for the reserve (education etc.). Now before this the tribes were both at around the same level. Well the tribe gave everyone a fair share basically nosed dived and the other tribe was doing great. Most people in the first tribe just wasted their money. While the other tribe kept and is still building up it's educational services. The difference is night and day. He said when you drove on the highway you could tell which tribe was which by the all abandoned cars on the one side.

Unfortunately not all leaders are as just with the money as this one. But it does go to show that with the right attitude it can be turned around.

We can't rely on our own government to spend our tax dollars wisely, yet we are pointing out what a reserve and it's leaders can do better? I agree with what you are saying as i said that's a huge problem earlier in this thread.

Funny how this thread was started, natives possibly blocking trains......not too long ago our transit drivers were going to go on strike and threatened to block c-trains from running by picketing across the tracks. Interesting that i didn't see a single comment regarding this and i'm sure that a situation like that would have had more of an effect on most of the people here than a blockade on a CP or CN rail track. Why is that?

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Funny how this thread was started, natives possibly blocking trains......not too long ago our transit drivers were going to go on strike and threatened to block c-trains from running by picketing across the tracks. Interesting that i didn't see a single comment regarding this and i'm sure that a situation like that would have had more of an effect on most of the people here than a blockade on a CP or CN rail track. Why is that?

Well they are not really comparable. The c-train and bus drivers are the same organization. Them blocking the train tracks or not going into work to drive those trains are basically accomplish the same thing. Where as the natives would be blocking a private company that has nothing to do with them. It would be like the transit drivers parking their buses across deerfoot and blocking traffic.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Funny how this thread was started, natives possibly blocking trains......not too long ago our transit drivers were going to go on strike and threatened to block c-trains from running by picketing across the tracks. Interesting that i didn't see a single comment regarding this and i'm sure that a situation like that would have had more of an effect on most of the people here than a blockade on a CP or CN rail track. Why is that?

Well, there were two seperate threads going on about it. Not all filled with kind words for the Transit Union either. Sorry you missed them.
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...hlight=transit
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...hlight=transit

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Well, there were two seperate threads going on about it. Not all filled with kind words for the Transit Union either. Sorry you missed them.
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...hlight=transit
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...hlight=transit

I read those threads Ken, most of the discussion was around ways to get to work and when the strike may happen. I didn't get the feeling that the animosity towards the union or the city was what it is in this thread regarding something that doesn't have the same effect on day to day life for the posters on this board.