Cheifs Threaten Train Blockades on June 29

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Have a look at Snakeeyes comment about the c-train, racism is alive and well in our glorious country.

If you wish to use your biasses as an excuse to insult others, you become no better than those you criticize. Watch you don't make yourself a hypocrite.

[Vulcan]

I think a few people around here ought to open their eyes. I walk into my small town Safeway and a couple of the clerks are native, and this goes for other stores around town. I see natives shopping around town, haven't seen one drunk yet, although I don't go to bars often. The Lund Hotel is kind of a tourist trap for boaters and owned by natives, never see any natives in there. Looking around Calgary, another person might mistake them for E. Indian or Mexican [often no difference] or in a crowd they may just blend in with other brown skinned people. They are around in their suits, company uniforms, work clothes, etc. Not enough, I admit but the racial profiling going on here, discourages young capable natives from stepping into our society and when they do, the road is not exactly easy.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

As for why natives are looked down upon: when was the last time you saw a sober native person in decent clothes on the c-train? People's perceptions are built by what they see, and what we don't see are a lot of native people who have integrated themselves into society.

I see a "native person in decent clothes" on the C-Train every day. Are you looking for well-dressed Indians on your way to work? Maybe you should get a different hobby, like looking for reeking, piss-pantsed white people.

You'll find plenty of them too. Granted, they don't have the excuse of being spoiled by the government, raking in millions and living on special "reserves" that their conniving ancestors were able to steal away from the white man, but they had a chance to make something of themselves.

[Resolute 14]

Of course you see "piss-pantsed white people" as well. You see similar blacks, hispanics, asians, etc. But you also see a ton of sober, clean whites, blacks, hispanics, asians. If you wish to waste time with an irrelevant side argument that there are people of other races that end up just as screwed up, feel free.

Point remains, most people see a lot more of the negative side of life in Natives than they do the positive. It was stated that there is a poor perception of natives, I offered a possible reason for it. Sorry if you are offended, but that ain't my problem.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Of course you see "piss-pantsed white people" as well. You see similar blacks, hispanics, asians, etc. But you also see a ton of sober, clean whites, blacks, hispanics, asians. If you wish to waste time with an irrelevant side argument that there are people of other races that end up just as screwed up, feel free.

Point remains, most people see a lot more of the negative side of life in Natives than they do the positive. It was stated that there is a poor perception of natives, I offered a possible reason for it. Sorry if you are offended, but that ain't my problem.

It's hard to be offended by something you know is coming.

And it is true that their is a poor perception of natives. You didn't offer a possible reason for it, you are perpetuating it. Saying something like "when is the last time you saw a clean and sober Indian in public (on the train)" is dictionary racism.

As for the "why should I pay for what people generations ago did" argument, let's turn that around a bit because I'm in sort of the opposite position. I'm a white Canadian and ancestors of mine made an agreement with some native folks more than 4 generations ago and bought property that is technically on an Indian reserve. We still own it and I expect some of it will have my name on it one day. All the people involved in that transaction, on both sides, are long dead. If the locals out there suddenly decide that they don't have to honor those contracts because they were made "generations ago", do you think I should just pack up and leave?

[chris lindberg]

bump

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by fotze

Is the phrase "pissed drunk" or "piss drunk"? I have seen people use "piss drunk" alot lately that I am starting to question myself believing it is "pissed drunk".

I'm getting pissed drunk this weekend, that's the one i use.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

As for the "why should I pay for what people generations ago did" argument, let's turn that around a bit because I'm in sort of the opposite position. I'm a white Canadian and ancestors of mine made an agreement with some native folks more than 4 generations ago and bought property that is technically on an Indian reserve....If the locals out there suddenly decide that they don't have to honor those contracts because they were made "generations ago", do you think I should just pack up and leave?

If they did decide to not honour the agreement, would you expect full compensation for breaking such agreement, to the point where you are given hand outs, not only for you, but for your grandchildrens-children-children? Say the reservations starting make more money, and your 4th generation grandchildren then come to Cheifs and ask for more money because said agreement was dishonered 4 generations ago.
And you have no problem with that, is that what you are getting at?

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by fotze

Is the phrase "pissed drunk" or "piss drunk"? I have seen people use "piss drunk" alot lately that I am starting to question myself believing it is "pissed drunk".

Who cares? Just use "##### faced"

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

And it is true that their is a poor perception of natives. You didn't offer a possible reason for it, you are perpetuating it. Saying something like "when is the last time you saw a clean and sober Indian in public (on the train)" is dictionary racism.

Actually, I did offer a solution: Leave the reserve and join society. Attitudes towards blacks have changed considerably since the end of segregation. Certainly there is a long, long way to go, but every generation sees improvement. So long as that self imposed barrier exists, the prejudices will not change.

As for the "why should I pay for what people generations ago did" argument, let's turn that around a bit because I'm in sort of the opposite position. I'm a white Canadian and ancestors of mine made an agreement with some native folks more than 4 generations ago and bought property that is technically on an Indian reserve. We still own it and I expect some of it will have my name on it one day. All the people involved in that transaction, on both sides, are long dead. If the locals out there suddenly decide that they don't have to honor those contracts because they were made "generations ago", do you think I should just pack up and leave?

Actually, my argument was "why should I feel guilty?", not "why should I pay?" I fully accept that there is a treaty in place, and that if native bands fulfill their obligations under the treaty, we have a responsibility to fulfill ours. No issues with that, whatsoever.

[chris lindberg]

just a question here, this "self imposed barrier" you speak of, could you explain this in more detail?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by chris lindberg

just a question here, this "self imposed barrier" you speak of, could you explain this in more detail?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no law saying a person has to live on a reserve; is there?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by chris lindberg

just a question here, this "self imposed barrier" you speak of, could you explain this in more detail?

The reserves.

Look at any group that lives in an insular society - they tend to be looked upon much differently than everyone else. Though natives are definitely treated far worse than others. Some of the attitudes I've seen surrounding hutterites aren't all that flattering either.

The one thing that defeats a misconception is tangible proof that it is wrong. So long as one society is separate from another, the misconceptions and stereotypes about eachother will remain.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

The reserves.

Look at any group that lives in an insular society - they tend to be looked upon much differently than everyone else. Though natives are definitely treated far worse than others. Some of the attitudes I've seen surrounding hutterites aren't all that flattering either.

The one thing that defeats a misconception is tangible proof that it is wrong. So long as one society is separate from another, the misconceptions and stereotypes about eachother will remain.

Who is stereotyping and who has misconceptions? Is it the guy that wrote about the c-train? Yeah, that was stereotyping at it's finest. Why do you feel that Natives are treated differently than Hutterites?

Do you not see that singling out Natives as being the scum of society as wrong? Things don't change overnight but they will never change with the attitude that some people have.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Do you not see that singling out Natives as being the scum of society as wrong? Things don't change overnight but they will never change with the attitude that some people have.

I don't feel I single out Natives, I try to judge each person on their own merits.

...but you'd be quite silly to not acknowledge that Native Americans have a much higher Chaff to Wheat Ratio than the average person living in Canada.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Do you not see that singling out Natives as being the scum of society as wrong? Things don't change overnight but they will never change with the attitude that some people have.

Of course it is wrong.

But if natives are going to sit around, bitch and moan about "the white man" and do nothing themselves, or for themselves, then nothing will change.

Incidentally, racism is a two way street. They can blame "the white man" for all of the ills they face, but that is simply an excuse. Other minority groups have managed to carve a place of greater respect for themselves in the world. Maybe they should take a look at how they did it.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I don't feel I single out Natives, I try to judge each person on their own merits.

...but you'd be quite silly to not acknowledge that Native Americans have a much higher Chaff to Wheat Ratio than the average person living in Canada.

That's purely from your standards, natives often have a different way of looking at life and might throw you [with your self righteous attitudes] in amongst the chaff. Other societies look at life diferently also.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Attitudes towards blacks have changed considerably since the end of segregation. Certainly there is a long, long way to go, but every generation sees improvement. So long as that self imposed barrier exists, the prejudices will not change.

I'm assuming you mean the black struggle for civil rights in america, to which you would be wrong. Until roughly 30 years ago, the United States was more racist against blacks (and I mean social as well as insitutionalized racism) than the 20 year period following the civil war. From the late 19th century, american culture became more and more racist instead of less.

Canadian popular opinion of natives shifts as well, depending on the political climate, social wellbeing of the nation and the perceived 'threat' natives pose.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

That's purely from your standards, natives often have a different way of looking at life and might throw you [with your self righteous attitudes] in amongst the chaff. Other societies look at life diferently also.

So increased rates (compared to the rest of Canada) of suicide, alcoholism, drug abuse, more likely to spend time in prison per capita are indicators of what then exactly? Well being?

Unless their "different way of looking at life" means they are proud of that fact, I don't think you have a point.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

So increased rates (compared to the rest of Canada) of suicide, alcoholism, drug abuse, more likely to spend time in prison per capita are indicators of what then exactly? Well being?

Unless their "different way of looking at life" means they are proud of that fact, I don't think you have a point.

For one thing they don't seem to be as hung up on material wealth as we do. Their old potlatchs are an example and they still follow similar traditions but in our world this is a deadly sin. They are changing though and we sure don't like it as evidenced by this thread.

They're troubles are indications of being focked over by our European civilization. How many suicides, alcoholics, drug abusers, and prisoners were there before we destroyed them. But instead of laying blame on them and us, lets try to give them a chance and let them regain their pride. Entirely too much racial generalization going on here. I try and approach each person as an individual and not make any judgements. With your attitude, they're beat before they start, pretty sick.