2023/2024 Trade Rumors and Speculation Thread

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think this is more of an example of how risky it is to try and tear things right down to the studs in a rebuild. People clamoring for a tear down rebuild are highly likely to see something similar happen to the Flames.

Stutzle, Tkachuk, Sanderson are all fantastic top 5 picks all are or will be superstars. Ottawa started their rebuild 6 years ago and we are accusing them of trying to rush things? I have no interest in the Flames being a complete bottom feeder for 7+ years.

I am not sure at how people can look at Ottawa and think that is the right path for the Flames to take.

I think Ottawa has plenty of talent but they have the same problem as the 2010’s Oilers where they have a bunch of young guys and their vets are a generation apart. Giroux is 35-36, Stutzle is 21-22. They don’t have enough of the middle guys to bridge the old and young. Those Oilers had the Hall, Eberle, Nuge hit the club boys and the Ference, Smyth old dads. Ottawa has made the same mistake.


Here is the question. What market similar to Calgary bottomed out and turned it around? Not a warm climate, tax haven, but a small market team where free agents don’t flock and they built it up from tanking and picking high. Honestly the closest example is Edmonton who hit a once in a generation lottery, had 11 top 10 picks in 13 years and still haven’t won the division, or more than 8 games in a single playoff run while the generational player is in his 9th year in the league.


The focus should not be on tanking as hard as you can for th highest pick by stripping your team to absolutely nothing. Acquire as many picks as you can for assets that are on their way out due to close tract expiry and at this stage use all of those picks to draft and develop players.


In my opinion there are plenty more examples of similar markets to Calgary getting caught in the endless rebuild cycle when they go tank styles instead of coming out as a dominant force

Ottawa and Buffalo are on the cusp of something good. They are absolutely worth the risk to take. Would you rather have that situation or an aging star situation? It really is one or the other. I’d say despite the rebuild there, there has been hope, and the fans see that. Calgary with a stronger fanbase should embrace it. Get a potential star and the fans would come in droves. Being in the muddle middle wears on the fanbase over time. Just because it hasn’t worked out in Ottawa yet doesn’t mean it won’t. The risk is worth it.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think this is more of an example of how risky it is to try and tear things right down to the studs in a rebuild. People clamoring for a tear down rebuild are highly likely to see something similar happen to the Flames.

Stutzle, Tkachuk, Sanderson are all fantastic top 5 picks all are or will be superstars. Ottawa started their rebuild 6 years ago and we are accusing them of trying to rush things? I have no interest in the Flames being a complete bottom feeder for 7+ years.

I am not sure at how people can look at Ottawa and think that is the right path for the Flames to take.

I think Ottawa has plenty of talent but they have the same problem as the 2010’s Oilers where they have a bunch of young guys and their vets are a generation apart. Giroux is 35-36, Stutzle is 21-22. They don’t have enough of the middle guys to bridge the old and young. Those Oilers had the Hall, Eberle, Nuge hit the club boys and the Ference, Smyth old dads. Ottawa has made the same mistake.


Here is the question. What market similar to Calgary bottomed out and turned it around? Not a warm climate, tax haven, but a small market team where free agents don’t flock and they built it up from tanking and picking high. Honestly the closest example is Edmonton who hit a once in a generation lottery, had 11 top 10 picks in 13 years and still haven’t won the division, or more than 8 games in a single playoff run while the generational player is in his 9th year in the league.


The focus should not be on tanking as hard as you can for th highest pick by stripping your team to absolutely nothing. Acquire as many picks as you can for assets that are on their way out due to close tract expiry and at this stage use all of those picks to draft and develop players.


In my opinion there are plenty more examples of similar markets to Calgary getting caught in the endless rebuild cycle when they go tank styles instead of coming out as a dominant force

How about Chicago, Pittsburg and Colorado. Chicago has worse winters than Calgary, not to mention it's dirty and dangerous. Pittsburgh isn't exactly high on any great cities of the world list. Denver is about as close an anagram to Calgary as you can get. On a high prairie plane close to the mountains and far from the coasts. Similiar population as well.

Those three teams have 7 of the 18 cups won in the salary cap era.

As to your other point about not wanting to watch a bottom feeder, the Flames have two playoff series wins in the salary cap era. Two! You're already committed to watching one of the bottom feeder teams in the league when it comes to playoff success.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

How about Chicago, Pittsburg and Colorado. Chicago has worse winters than Calgary, not to mention it's dirty and dangerous. Pittsburgh isn't exactly high on any great cities of the world list. Denver is about as close an anagram to Calgary as you can get. On a high prairie plane close to the mountains and far from the coasts. Similiar population as well.

Those three teams have 7 of the 18 cups won in the salary cap era.

As to your other point about not wanting to watch a bottom feeder, the Flames have two playoff series wins in the salary cap era. Two! You're already committed to watching one of the bottom feeder teams in the league when it comes to playoff success.

The Flames are already the 9th worst team in the league. Being afraid of bottoming out is pointless at this juncture. They already have. Without Markstrom being an absolute heater, they would be a bottom 5 team right now.

The only difference now is are they a smart team that knows this season is lost, and make trades for the long term, or are they a dumb team where they try and maintain this losing culture by focusing on the short term.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

How about Chicago, Pittsburg and Colorado. Chicago has worse winters than Calgary, not to mention it's dirty and dangerous. Pittsburgh isn't exactly high on any great cities of the world list. Denver is about as close an anagram to Calgary as you can get. On a high prairie plane close to the mountains and far from the coasts. Similiar population as well.

Those three teams have 7 of the 18 cups won in the salary cap era.

As to your other point about not wanting to watch a bottom feeder, the Flames have two playoff series wins in the salary cap era. Two! You're already committed to watching one of the bottom feeder teams in the league when it comes to playoff success.

There are far more differences between those cities you mention than similarities. Chicago may have worse winters but I bet they’re about 2.5 months shorter. It’s also one of the largest cities in North America. There is very little to suggest these two, specifically, are similar in any way.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think this is more of an example of how risky it is to try and tear things right down to the studs in a rebuild. People clamoring for a tear down rebuild are highly likely to see something similar happen to the Flames.

Stutzle, Tkachuk, Sanderson are all fantastic top 5 picks all are or will be superstars. Ottawa started their rebuild 6 years ago and we are accusing them of trying to rush things? I have no interest in the Flames being a complete bottom feeder for 7+ years.

I am not sure at how people can look at Ottawa and think that is the right path for the Flames to take.

I think Ottawa has plenty of talent but they have the same problem as the 2010’s Oilers where they have a bunch of young guys and their vets are a generation apart. Giroux is 35-36, Stutzle is 21-22. They don’t have enough of the middle guys to bridge the old and young. Those Oilers had the Hall, Eberle, Nuge hit the club boys and the Ference, Smyth old dads. Ottawa has made the same mistake.


Here is the question. What market similar to Calgary bottomed out and turned it around? Not a warm climate, tax haven, but a small market team where free agents don’t flock and they built it up from tanking and picking high. Honestly the closest example is Edmonton who hit a once in a generation lottery, had 11 top 10 picks in 13 years and still haven’t won the division, or more than 8 games in a single playoff run while the generational player is in his 9th year in the league.


The focus should not be on tanking as hard as you can for th highest pick by stripping your team to absolutely nothing. Acquire as many picks as you can for assets that are on their way out due to close tract expiry and at this stage use all of those picks to draft and develop players.


In my opinion there are plenty more examples of similar markets to Calgary getting caught in the endless rebuild cycle when they go tank styles instead of coming out as a dominant force

And the alternative?

Trying to continually compete with a team that just gets worse?

If Calgary trades their UFA’s to be for NHL ready prospects, they will run back a similar team as this year, but one which is worse. A team which was lucky to beat the NHL’s worse team missing their one great player.

Calgary may be going scorched earth in spite of themselves.

They may well have zero players currently on the team that will become the core of a Stanley cup contender.

Teams like Chicago and San Jose are likely closer to making the playoffs than Calgary. Although that will be some years down the road.

[Flamesfan05]

Buffalo and Ottawa have good young pieces that they can build to win whether they will be successful or not is depending on their management.

The Flames were bottom feeder and got Monahan, Tkachuk, Bennett and luck out on Gaudreau . The wizard ####ed it up, that’s why they won only one playoff series.

They need high picks to rebuild the core and try again. There is no way around it. With all due respect guys like Zary, Pelletier and even Coronato and Honzek are complementary pieces. They are not talented enough to drive a winning team. Regardless it’s a 6-7 years process at the minimum, if they are lucky.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Ottawa is exhibited A for what happens when you try to speed up a rebuild and also don’t acquire a franchise player by truely bottoming out

They have a lot of very good players but they don’t have a true number 1 D or a superstar Center

They have tried to take the next step by bleeding pics and assets and failed

This is actually why it so important to bottom right out - Detroit and Ottawa have never gotten the superstar (or 2) needed to take the next step IMO

A good lesson for the Flames if we want to build a contender.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by TOfan

There are far more differences between those cities you mention than similarities. Chicago may have worse winters but I bet they’re about 2.5 months shorter. It’s also one of the largest cities in North America. There is very little to suggest these two, specifically, are similar in any way.

Plus, Denver's population is not the same as Calgary's; it's double when you consider the metro population.

[Bunk]

It’s all about maximizing your odds to contend. While all strategies carry risk and no guarantee of success, what is true beyond any shadow of a doubt is the best odds for building a contender is building through the draft with a number of very high first round picks as a core.

What is a mortal lock for not being a contender is what the flames have been up to.

The only path is maximize your asset value now for futures. Must trade Markstrom, Tanev, Lindholm and Hanifin at a minimum to begin stocking the cupboards. We all know deep down it’s the way. The Flames know it too, but they are a stubborn group.

[kukkudo]

Flames have done nothing since 04, the fear of ownership, management, and fans of a rebuild is hilarious. This team has been mediocre for quite some time. Stockpile on picks for the next few years and see what happens. But doing the same thing for over 25 years obviously it isn’t working.

[Winsor_Pilates]

The Flames are at minimum 4-5 seasons away from the playoffs.
Time to build a new core, or they'll never get there.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

The Flames are already the 9th worst team in the league. Being afraid of bottoming out is pointless at this juncture. They already have. Without Markstrom being an absolute heater, they would be a bottom 5 team right now.

Yeah, I’m not sure how people miss this fact every day.

Try hard or tank, for this team right now the end result is basically the same.

The next 3 years are going to be awesome with lottery potential each one imo.

When the UFAs go I could see us maybe winning 5 more games all season.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by TOfan

There are far more differences between those cities you mention than similarities. Chicago may have worse winters but I bet they’re about 2.5 months shorter. It’s also one of the largest cities in North America. There is very little to suggest these two, specifically, are similar in any way.

Ok, great, so there is no other city exactly like Calgary, so we can do away with trying to find a comparable success story to try to emulate and just come up with a plan that works here. I know for sure that the 'try to be competitive every year and just get in' plan won't win any cups and also won't even get them into the playoffs more than half the time. And when they do get in, they get bounced back out pretty quick. That plan hasn't worked for the last 18 seasons (well, 19, because it didn't work this year either). There is no reason to think it will suddenly start working, so why not try something different. Actually commit to building through the draft. It might take a decade to see real results, but they weren't going to win anything substantial in the next decade anyway by using the plan from the last 19 years.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

How about Chicago, Pittsburg and Colorado. Chicago has worse winters than Calgary, not to mention it's dirty and dangerous. Pittsburgh isn't exactly high on any great cities of the world list. Denver is about as close an anagram to Calgary as you can get. On a high prairie plane close to the mountains and far from the coasts. Similiar population as well.

Those three teams have 7 of the 18 cups won in the salary cap era.

As to your other point about not wanting to watch a bottom feeder, the Flames have two playoff series wins in the salary cap era. Two! You're already committed to watching one of the bottom feeder teams in the league when it comes to playoff success.

Chicago has a metro population of 9 million people and is an utterly laughable comparison to Calgary it is like comparing Red Deer to Calgary. Pittsburgh hit the Edmonton model so sure land the once in a generation superstar that helps a lot.

Colorado is a good example and they won 9 years after they drafted their cornerstone player and 5 years after they picked their franchise player.

I think there is a very legitimate chance if the Flames go the tankbuild route the way some want we could go a full decade or more without making the playoffs. We have been mediocre forever but have never been absolutely horrible for a 5+ year run.

For the record I think this team needs to do a rebuild/retool but I am against trading any and every vet we can get a pick for and feel there is a need for a solid transition. The team is trending towards a top 10 pick this draft, they hopefully add more draft assets for Lindholm, Hanifin, Tanev. I think they should look to move Markstrom if there is a deal to be made that gives them some key futures. I would like the team to make all the picks they acquire but if they could steal a solid RFA like they did with Hamilton, Lindholm, and Hanifin I would be interested in those deals at the draft.

Keep some vets around like Backlund, Coleman, Kadri, Andersson, Weegar, and Huberdeau and have those guys teach the Pelletier, Zary, Coronato, Wolf etc how to be a really good pro so those guys are good role models for what hopefully will be the future core of the Flames with the guys they pick with their next 2-3 high firsts rounders. Ideally the flames add 4-6 1st round prospects in the next 2 drafts with a couple in the top 10.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

And the alternative?

Trying to continually compete with a team that just gets worse?

If Calgary trades their UFA’s to be for NHL ready prospects, they will run back a similar team as this year, but one which is worse. A team which was lucky to beat the NHL’s worse team missing their one great player.

Calgary may be going scorched earth in spite of themselves.

They may well have zero players currently on the team that will become the core of a Stanley cup contender.

Teams like Chicago and San Jose are likely closer to making the playoffs than Calgary. Although that will be some years down the road.

Alternative is not ateipmit right down and ensure there is a transition from the current vets to the young players on the team who will be on their prime when this team hopefully starts to compete again. Don’t let Coronato/Zary/etc come up and accept losing because these guys will be 27-28 when our new core of the guys drafted over the next 2-3 years are coming up.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Ottawa and Buffalo are on the cusp of something good. They are absolutely worth the risk to take. Would you rather have that situation or an aging star situation? It really is one or the other. I’d say despite the rebuild there, there has been hope, and the fans see that. Calgary with a stronger fanbase should embrace it. Get a potential star and the fans would come in droves. Being in the muddle middle wears on the fanbase over time. Just because it hasn’t worked out in Ottawa yet doesn’t mean it won’t. The risk is worth it.

We have been hearing this about Buffalo for a long time. Buffalos situation took 11 years and counting to get to this point. Ottawa is 6 years of pain to get here. I absolutely want to avoid what Buffalo went through here.

I also agree the fanbase would rather watch a promising young team lead by a potential risk future star as opposed to a team of average vets fight and claw to be in a wildcard race. I also know this fanbase turned on Sam Bennett before he was 23 years old. I am not sure I buy how patient this fanbase will be with a rebuild that doesn’t show immense promise fairly quickly.

[Erick Estrada]

Given the Kings goaltending situation now and in the offseason I’m surprised they aren’t heavily pursuing Markstrom. He seems like the perfect fit for their short and medium term needs.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Given the Kings goaltending situation now and in the offseason I’m surprised they aren’t heavily pursuing Markstrom. He seems like the perfect fit for their short and medium term needs.

The reason teams are not pursuing Markstrom is the price is too steep and that won't change.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

The reason teams are not pursuing Markstrom is the price is too steep and that won't change.

Well, the Flames never been able to properly asses the value of their own players so this doesn’t surprise me. The Flames should 100% be looking to trade Markstrom. Keeping him is foolish.

Why keep him? To try and win/build a winning culture? Nope, sorry - not going to happen. The team has a losing culture with Markstrom at the helm of the crease. All he’s doing is keeping this team drafting 9th rather than 5th. Both situations are that of a losing team.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

How about Chicago, Pittsburg and Colorado. Chicago has worse winters than Calgary, not to mention it's dirty and dangerous. Pittsburgh isn't exactly high on any great cities of the world list. Denver is about as close an anagram to Calgary as you can get. On a high prairie plane close to the mountains and far from the coasts. Similiar population as well.

Those three teams have 7 of the 18 cups won in the salary cap era.

This is all confirmation bias. How many other teams were or had bottomed out in an effort to turnaround their franchise while these teams were winning? Lots of them.

Someone has to win the cup every year, and with that you can make up any narrative you want to explain the theory. But it doesn’t make it a robust theory.