2023/2024 Trade Rumors and Speculation Thread

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Ottawa is exhibited A for what happens when you try to speed up a rebuild and also don’t acquire a franchise player by truely bottoming out

They have a lot of very good players but they don’t have a true number 1 D or a superstar Center

They have tried to take the next step by bleeding pics and assets and failed

This is actually why it so important to bottom right out - Detroit and Ottawa have never gotten the superstar (or 2) needed to take the next step IMO

Agreed. I think much of that stemmed from the WJC when they had Stutzle and he was hyped up to no end. Ownership and management sometimes buy into their own BS and see the cash signs for "expediting" the rebuild. It takes time and some level of patience. Though admittedly that's hard when many of these types are surrounded by yes men taking orders from top down.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Agreed. I think much of that stemmed from the WJC when they had Stutzle and he was hyped up to no end. Ownership and management sometimes buy into their own BS and see the cash signs for "expediting" the rebuild. It takes time and some level of patience. Though admittedly that's hard when many of these types are surrounded by yes men taking orders from top down.

… Stutzle is a beast.

[iloveicedhockey]

Was going to say the same.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Ottawa is exhibited A for what happens when you try to speed up a rebuild and also don’t acquire a franchise player by truely bottoming out

They have a lot of very good players but they don’t have a true number 1 D or a superstar Center

They have tried to take the next step by bleeding pics and assets and failed

This is actually why it so important to bottom right out - Detroit and Ottawa have never gotten the superstar (or 2) needed to take the next step IMO

I think you’re missing the mark. Ottawa has the talent. Stutzle scored 90 in 78 as a 20/21 year old. If that’s not elite production for a player that age, I would like to see the comparable player you could point to and show he’s not.

Sanderson, I’ve heard from numerous journalists/insiders/analysts etc say he’s elite or will be elite. Again, he’s 21.

Much like the Canucks last year (Pettersen and Hughes) the Senators have the pieces, they just seem to not have the right mix. They need a goalie, some vets who can play (Mackenzie Weegar?), and likely a new coach (Berube would be good for them, I think). They could turn a corner sharply.

[cam_calderon]

And look how many Cups he's won them...

Obviously not only up to him, you need a true No.1 centre, No.1 D and goaltending. Not sure why this is such a confounding concept for so many GMs (not that it's easy to come up with these three players).

Even with elite goaltending, the Sens are in a very tough division. I'm not sure where they go now.

[cam_calderon]

And that Korpisalo deal is mind boggling. Awful.

[bluejays]

Stutzle is very very good. I meant to say the Sens thought they had a guy who would come right out and lead the franchise right away just based on WJC hype, and they started bringing in the "leaders" like Giroux to expedite too early. Stutzle is very good, agreed. He just wasn't the guy to take them there yet (as it does take awhile to get to NHL weight and speed). I just think teams trying to force the rebuild through bringing in the vets at the wrong time is a problem. Burke did the same with the Leafs, and that only happens if you have a combination of ownership and upper management who wants to force it like it's a business deal, when it's not.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

And look how many Cups he's won them...

Obviously not only up to him, you need a true No.1 centre, No.1 D and goaltending. Not sure why this is such a confounding concept for so many GMs (not that it's easy to come up with these three players).

Even with elite goaltending, the Sens are in a very tough division. I'm not sure where they go now.

Are you suggesting that a player needs to have won a cup to be elite?

McDavid, Draisatl, Hughes, Peterson , Fox , Tkachuk, Etc etc etc……

Divisions ebb and flow. Tampa’s showing signs of a decline and Boston will fall (eventually). Is Toronto out of reach in the foreseeable future? Where’s their elite D or goalie?

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I think you’re missing the mark. Ottawa has the talent. Stutzle scored 90 in 78 as a 20/21 year old. If that’s not elite production for a player that age, I would like to see the comparable player you could point to and show he’s not.

Sanderson, I’ve heard from numerous journalists/insiders/analysts etc say he’s elite or will be elite. Again, he’s 21.

Much like the Canucks last year (Pettersen and Hughes) the Senators have the pieces, they just seem to not have the right mix. They need a goalie, some vets who can play (Mackenzie Weegar?), and likely a new coach (Berube would be good for them, I think). They could turn a corner sharply.

I think those players - And Brady - Make a great 2-3-4 as your best players

They are missing the superstar forward (preferably center) and superstar D.

And a goalie - But they are very random and should be the last piece a team worries about.

Stutzle would be one of the worst top players for any playoff team / playoff matchup.

He has 10 goals this season. He hasnt been able to take the jump from last seasons success.

I think he's a very very good player and someone you can build a team with, just not build the team around.

[cam_calderon]

Depends on your definition of elite, I guess. He is 39th in scoring this year, admittedly on a terrible team.

Your assertion was they are a new "mix" away from turning the corner. Let's just say they get a competent goalie in the offseason and Chabot turns into a bona fide No.1. As talented as that forward group is, is Stutzle on par with MacKinnon, McDavid or Crosby or even a Jack Hughes?

Or to simplify, is Stutzle a No.1 centre on a legit contender as you see it?

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I think those players - And Brady - Make a great 2-3-4 as your best players

They are missing the superstar forward (preferably center) and superstar D.

And a goalie - But they are very random and should be the last piece a team worries about.

Stutzle would be one of the worst top players for any playoff team. He has 10 goals this season. He hasnt been able to take the jump from last seasons success.

I think he's a very very good player and someone you can build a team with, just not build the team around.

For sure debatable. He's no McDavid/MacKinnon/Crosby, but he's likely going to round out to be at the worst, M.Tkachuk (without the agitation). I think he's more skilled though. He can also skate alright but his bread and better is ability to hold the puck with his strength. So he may not end up being a superstar, which I personally think there are only a handful of where you'd rely on to score when you most need it, but he'll be a star. He just needs the right cast. Like you said though, their D and Goaltending are the pieces missing. I also think they need more bottom half speed. I think there upper talent depth is very good though and which is probably why they don't need that superstar.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by bluejays

For sure debatable. He's no McDavid/MacKinnon/Crosby, but he's likely going to round out to be at the worst, M.Tkachuk (without the agitation). I think he's more skilled though. He can also skate alright but his bread and better is ability to hold the puck with his strength. So he may not end up being a superstar, which I personally think there are only a handful of to depend on to score when you most need it, but he'll be a star. He just needs the right cast. Like you said though, their D and Goaltending are the pieces missing. I also think they need more bottom half speed. I think there upper talent depth is very good though and which is probably why they don't need that superstar.

He has 10 goals in 45 games.

Your #1 center needs to be able to score when it counts

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

Depends on your definition of elite, I guess. He is 39th in scoring this year, admittedly on a terrible team.

Your assertion was they are a new "mix" away from turning the corner. Let's just say they get a competent goalie in the offseason and Chabot turns into a bona fide No.1. As talented as that forward group is, is Stutzle on par with MacKinnon, McDavid or Crosby or even a Jack Hughes?

Or to simplify, is Stutzle a No.1 centre on a legit contender as you see it?

Is Stutzle a No. 1C on a legit contender? That’s kind of a guess, at best. Who is he surrounded with in this scenario? Could he be the 1C on the Bruins, yeah, I bet he could.

Again, he’s just turned 22 and you probably don’t need to look too hard to find other 1C’s who have had similar ups and downs for their first few years in the league. Draisatl wasn’t showing his dominance until 23. Pettersson’s point total high at that age was 68.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Is Stutzle a No. 1C on a legit contender? That’s kind of a guess, at best. Who is he surrounded with in this scenario? Could he be the 1C on the Bruins, yeah, I bet he could.

Again, he’s just turned 22 and you probably don’t need to look too hard to find other 1C’s who have had similar ups and downs for their first few years in the league. Draisatl wasn’t showing his dominance until 23. Pettersson’s point total high at that age was 68.

The point is Stutzle as your number 2 center or 1B would have this team in a lot better position if they had bottomed out 1 more year instead of selling assets to try and speed up the rebuild.

Trading a 1st for Duchene and then trading more assets to end of drafting 10th overall in 2010 were both big mistake trying to speed up the rebuild.

Thats 2 potential top picks and franchise players to pair with their core if they had just remained patient.

Flames cant make this mistake

[cam_calderon]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Is Stutzle a No. 1C on a legit contender? That’s kind of a guess, at best. Who is he surrounded with in this scenario? Could he be the 1C on the Bruins, yeah, I bet he could.

Again, he’s just turned 22 and you probably don’t need to look too hard to find other 1C’s who have had similar ups and downs for their first few years in the league. Draisatl wasn’t showing his dominance until 23. Pettersson’s point total high at that age was 68.

Fair enough, that was an abstract question.

As an elite centre, to drag a roster that's not proportionally constructed deep into the playoffs, you've got to be McDavid or one of the top, top guys. Now, the Sens are built much better than the Oil but the point remains that they have more than a few underperforming guys.

Tarasenko comes off the books at season's end, but Sanderson's big $8 million extension kicks in at the same time. There's the Korpisalo deal, too. I just can't see the elite talent in Stutzle that he's the kind of centre to offset these issues.

[cam_calderon]

To Jason's point, imagine a scenario where they bottom out further and get Bedard.

Bedard on an ELC, Stutzle as a 1B (or vice versa) and Brady as your 3C is beyond elite.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Ottawa is exhibited A for what happens when you try to speed up a rebuild and also don’t acquire a franchise player by truely bottoming out

They have a lot of very good players but they don’t have a true number 1 D or a superstar Center

They have tried to take the next step by bleeding pics and assets and failed

This is actually why it so important to bottom right out - Detroit and Ottawa have never gotten the superstar (or 2) needed to take the next step IMO

I think this is more of an example of how risky it is to try and tear things right down to the studs in a rebuild. People clamoring for a tear down rebuild are highly likely to see something similar happen to the Flames.

Stutzle, Tkachuk, Sanderson are all fantastic top 5 picks all are or will be superstars. Ottawa started their rebuild 6 years ago and we are accusing them of trying to rush things? I have no interest in the Flames being a complete bottom feeder for 7+ years.

I am not sure at how people can look at Ottawa and think that is the right path for the Flames to take.

I think Ottawa has plenty of talent but they have the same problem as the 2010’s Oilers where they have a bunch of young guys and their vets are a generation apart. Giroux is 35-36, Stutzle is 21-22. They don’t have enough of the middle guys to bridge the old and young. Those Oilers had the Hall, Eberle, Nuge hit the club boys and the Ference, Smyth old dads. Ottawa has made the same mistake.


Here is the question. What market similar to Calgary bottomed out and turned it around? Not a warm climate, tax haven, but a small market team where free agents don’t flock and they built it up from tanking and picking high. Honestly the closest example is Edmonton who hit a once in a generation lottery, had 11 top 10 picks in 13 years and still haven’t won the division, or more than 8 games in a single playoff run while the generational player is in his 9th year in the league.


The focus should not be on tanking as hard as you can for th highest pick by stripping your team to absolutely nothing. Acquire as many picks as you can for assets that are on their way out due to close tract expiry and at this stage use all of those picks to draft and develop players.


In my opinion there are plenty more examples of similar markets to Calgary getting caught in the endless rebuild cycle when they go tank styles instead of coming out as a dominant force

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

The point is Stutzle as your number 2 center or 1B would have this team in a lot better position if they had bottomed out 1 more year instead of selling assets to try and speed up the rebuild.

Trading a 1st for Duchene and then trading more assets to end of drafting 10th overall in 2010 were both big mistake trying to speed up the rebuild.

Thats 2 potential top picks and franchise players to pair with their core if they had just remaining patient.

Flames cant make this mistake

This is essentially a meaningless discussion.

Had the Senators bottomed out for one more year would they be better today? Who knows. Bottom out to what? If they win the lottery in 3021 are they way better today if they picked Mason McTavish or Matt Beniers to presumably be this 1C the Senators apparently need? I strongly doubt that. How many top 5 picks does one team need? 4?5? Half your roster?

The Seanotors have the assets today to compete (minus perhaps a new coach) to turn themselves into a competitive team.

The same, or similar things, said about the Canucks last year are being said about the Senators this year.

Also, if the Flames find themselves with a young 1C coming off a 90 point season locked up, and a Dman many around the league are saying is already, or in short order, will be elite 3ish years for the road, I think you will find yourself pretty disappointed when they start making a push to compete for a playoff spot.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

The point is Stutzle as your number 2 center or 1B would have this team in a lot better position if they had bottomed out 1 more year instead of selling assets to try and speed up the rebuild.

Trading a 1st for Duchene and then trading more assets to end of drafting 10th overall in 2010 were both big mistake trying to speed up the rebuild.

Thats 2 potential top picks and franchise players to pair with their core if they had just remained patient.

Flames cant make this mistake

They traded a 1st for Duchene the year after they lost in game 7 OT of the ECF they did not make that move at all to speed up a rebuild it was to contend with the team that got super close to the cup the year before. The 1st they moved for him was Byram. Does Byram make the Sens a top team today? I am not sure what you are referencing with 2010? I assume that is a mistake?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

To Jason's point, imagine a scenario where they bottom out further and get Bedard.

Bedard on an ELC, Stutzle as a 1B (or vice versa) and Brady as your 3C is beyond elite.

So really what you’re suggesting is the Senators should have bottomed out from 2017 the year prior to Tkachuck to 2023.

No team would bottom out for 6 years, intentionally.