2023/2024 Trade Rumors and Speculation Thread

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by traptor

O forsure I agree with this, at the end of the day it comes down to what a teams willing to pay.

I'm just saying based on historical deals I don't think hanifin snags you a 1st+ Holtz.

Could it happen? Sure
Would I want it to happen? Definitely
Do I think its likely given recent history of the trade market? No.

Ok
I can agree with that too
I’m part of the “preparing to be underwhelmed” camp actually
Which is why I’m not sure I want only picks for these UFAs
Jersey is the only team of the mentioned ones that a first might be of higher value since they might just miss the playoffs

[Hockey_Ninja]

I can’t wait till some actual trades start to happen

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You didn’t actually provide any examples, you asked others to provide examples but haven’t actually provided a single one that supports your position.

You also don’t seem to understand the UFA issue. Whether the Flames sign Hanifin and then trade him, or a team is allowed to talk to Hanifin’s agent and get confirmation that Hanifin would be willing to sign there at a price they’re willing to pay, both make his value equal to a player already signed to that contract (whatever it happens to be).So, “pending UFA” as a value detractor goes out the window. Doesn’t matter.

Can you provide a good example of a player like Hanifin moving and not getting back value similar to Holtz + a 1st? Because so far it looks like you’re either underrating Hanifin or overrating Holtz, and I’m genuinely curious what you’re basing this on.

Probably not going to be a close enough comparable to satisfy you so here’s some random examples to wet your palette.

Chychrun = Protected 1st + two 2nds
Hronek + 4th = Protected 1st + 2nd
Toews = Two 2nds
Trouba = Pionk + 1st
Sergachev + 2nd = Drouin + 6th
Dillon = 2nd + 3rd
Dillon = Two 2nds
Severson = 3rd
Manson = Helleson + 2nd
Barron + 2nd = Lehkonen
Sandin = Gustafson + 1st
Gavrikov + Korpisalo = Quick + 1st + 3rd
McDonagh = Mismash + Myers
McCabe + Lafferty + 2x5ths = Anderson + Gogolev + 1st + 2nd
Leddy + Witkowksi = Walman + Sundqvist + 2nd
Orlov = 5th
Middleton = Kakhonen + 5th
Marino = Smith + 3rd
Lundkvist = 1st + 4th
Romanov + 4th = 1st
Montour = 3rd
Graves = Maltsev + 2nd
Lauzon = 2nd
Jensen + 5th = Bowey + 2nd
Martinez = Two 2nds
Scandella = 2nd + 4th

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by traptor

I'm just saying based on historical deals I don't think hanifin snags you a 1st+ Holtz.

I think you're wrong and you're not even acknowledging a trade made last season with a similar structure. Bo Horvat, an expiring contract, was traded for a middle six forward in Beauviller, one of the Islanders' best prospects (arguably their best) in Raty, and a conditional 1st rounder where the conditions were met. I think that Hanifin is every bit as valuable as Horvat was last season as he would be the best defenseman available and able to play on your top pair. A 1st and a top five prospect from any organization is a bargain for any defenseman that can play in the situations that Hanifin does. You could argue that Holtz could be classified as promoted, but I would still classify him as a prospect, just like Pelletier and Zary would be for the Flames as they have yet to establish themselves by playing a complete season. So I think a 1st and Holtz is more than fair, especially if Hanifin agrees to an extension.

[traptor]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I think you're wrong and you're not even acknowledging a trade made last season with a similar structure. Bo Horvat, an expiring contract, was traded for a middle six forward in Beauviller, one of the Islanders' best prospects (arguably their best) in Raty, and a conditional 1st rounder where the conditions were met. I think that Hanifin is every bit as valuable as Horvat was last season as he would be the best defenseman available and able to play on your top pair. A 1st and a top five prospect from any organization is a bargain for any defenseman that can play in the situations that Hanifin does. You could argue that Holtz could be classified as promoted, but I would still classify him as a prospect, just like Pelletier and Zary would be for the Flames as they have yet to establish themselves by playing a complete season. So I think a 1st and Holtz is more than fair, especially if Hanifin agrees to an extension.

Holtz is a much more valuable prospect then raty and beavillier is worth a 5th rounder.
So I'd say we'd be getting substantially more for hanifin then they got for horvat.

But here I did some homework for you guys and got some examples to support you since I like discussion and not just trying to validate whatever point I'm backing like some of you.

Some top 10 picks from the last years that have been traded:

2019-Dach
2018-boqvist
2017 - glass, tippet

Two interesting names in boqvist and tippett.

Boqvist+++ traded for pending UFA Jones the summer before jones contract was up. Jones was a similar age as hanifin.

Tippett+1st traded for pending UFA giroux with 50% retained.

The jones deal was absolutely nutty and if we hit that for Hanifin I would be ecstatic.
The Giroux deal is pretty close to holtz+1st and would be an amazing deal.

[Flamesfan05]

Yeah Raty is not even close to the same league as Holtz lol…some people


If Conroy could have traded Hanifin for a top A prospect and a 1st, he would have done it already

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Yeah Raty is not even close to the same league as Holtz lol…some people


If Conroy could have traded Hanifin for a top A prospect and a 1st, he would have done it already

Well apparently not. Also, most hockey experts do not consider Holtz a top A prospect.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Yeah Raty is not even close to the same league as Holtz lol…some people


If Conroy could have traded Hanifin for a top A prospect and a 1st, he would have done it already

I like Holtz but he's not a top A prospect
He does one thing well - score goals thanks to pretty good hands.
But he rest of his game is OK at best. He's not a great all around player. So he's more one dimensional and not a premium player at the one dimension.

He's the type of guy that is a top 6 forward on middling teams.
He's more of a B type prospect. I think very similar to Owen Tippet actually, though he's improved since getting more of a chance, which is what you would be hoping for from Holtz.

To think of it another way, where does he go in a re-draft of 2020 where he went 7. I think he probably goes in the 20s now. So that's the quality of prospect you are getting here.

That all being said, I think he'd be a great pick-up in this type of deal.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Yeah Raty is not even close to the same league as Holtz lol…some people


If Conroy could have traded Hanifin for a top A prospect and a 1st, he would have done it already

Holtz has not lived up to his 7th OA draft spot. Still a decent gamble but I think he’s a B+ guy at this rate

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Dan403

:facepalm

If its a SIGN and trade. Then by definition he's not a Pending UFA. He's SIGNED.

The only reason Tkachuk was a sign-and-trade is that the Flames were eligible to give him an 8-year deal and the Panthers weren't.

If a player is traded during the season, before the trade deadline, then he will be on his new team's roster at the trade deadline, and the new team will be eligible to give him an 8-year deal.

The benefit of a sign-and-trade in such a case is zero.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah I think Holtz is more likely just because Mercer is already a bigger part of the team.

Hanifin for the Devils is an interesting long term play for sure, that helps now and the future. They could use another LH dman.

LH: Hughes, Siegenthaler
RH: Hamilton, Marino, Nemec

Add Hanifin to that mix and's a pretty impressive d-core for the foreseeable future.

Bahl?

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Holtz has not lived up to his 7th OA draft spot. Still a decent gamble but I think he’s a B+ guy at this rate

He is firmly in Lindy's doghouse and can't get out no matter what he does.

[FlamesAddiction]

Holtz is 4 months younger than Connor Zary and 10 months younger than Jacob Pelletier. It's way too early to say he is what he is.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Yes, he’s still very young. But to call him a top rated prospect isn’t what he is at the moment.

He can absolutely explode on a team that will give him more ice time. If we can land him he will be better. Same goes for Mercer.

[Sandman]

I've read plenty from the fans in NJ, and they say he's taken another few steps forward, but he's been stuck on the 3rd line. Many say he's very deserving of a promotion, and looks very good this year. The few times I've watched him, I've noticed him in a positive way. Before the season started, I might've been down on Holtz as the "now" player coming back in a trade with jersey, but I'm fine with it now. Give him some more ice-time, and watch him take off...

[memphusk]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

He is firmly in Lindy's doghouse and can't get out no matter what he does.

.

Fire Lindy.

[Samonadreau]

Dont know anything about the Holtz but hes been a minus every season at every level since his draft. (Including his draft season)

[Sandman]

Just for reference, Holtz has 19 points in 37 games, while playing down the lineup...

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The only reason Tkachuk was a sign-and-trade is that the Flames were eligible to give him an 8-year deal and the Panthers weren't.

If a player is traded during the season, before the trade deadline, then he will be on his new team's roster at the trade deadline, and the new team will be eligible to give him an 8-year deal.

The benefit of a sign-and-trade in such a case is zero.

It's from 2021 but not according to this.

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/w...ign-and-trade/

iv) An SPC with a term of greater than seven (7) years, provided, however, that a Club may sign a Player to an SPC with a term of up to eight (8) years if that Player was on such Club’s Reserve List as of and since the most recent Trade Deadline. With respect to potential Unrestricted Free Agents only, the ability to re-sign a Player to an SPC of eight (8) years expires when the Player becomes an Unrestricted Free Agent. With respect to a Player who becomes a Group 2 Restricted Free Agent, a Club may sign such Player to an SPC with a term of up to eight (8) years provided such Player was on such Club’s Reserve List and/or Restricted Free Agent List as of and since the most recent Trade Deadline.

So that should mean last year's deadline.

Article 50.8

The Reserve List includes unsigned drafted players, and any other unsigned player a team may have the exclusive signing rights to. All players who have to be signed to an ELC cannot get a longer term since ELC rules mandate the term of the contract. Any player who is due a contract as an RFA or UFA and was on the team signing them at the trade deadline can get an eight-year deal.

The Maple Leafs could sign Joseph Woll or Nick Foligno or Zach Hyman to an eight-year deal. They cannot acquire Dougie Hamilton in trade and then sign him to eight years.

For players whose contracts are running out — pending UFAs — this ability to sign eight-year deals expires at midnight before the opening of free agency. The Transition Rules for the 2020-2021 season make that explicit with this year’s unusual date:

July 27: Club’s ability to offer own potential UFA an eight (8) year SPC expires (11:59 p.m. New York Time)

[dammage79]

I still think McLeod comes to CGY in any deal structure with NJ. Holtz+McLeod makes a lot of sense.

If Conroy plays these cards right, he can walk put with some serious assets to build for the future and round out a roster for the right now.