Israel declares war on Hamas

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Problem is Israel needs to finish this, savages like Hamas will eventually get their hands on a dirty bomb or worst, just imagine to outcome if that happens.

There is no "finishing this". This is the greatest recruitment operation of future anti-Israel terrorists of all time.

We have countless examples of this in history. The amount of kids that will grow up and remember their slain family members and dedicate their lives to revenge is going to be huge. They represent a massive amount of fuel to be thrown on this fire in the coming decades.

Just as the October 7th attacks are sure to bolster the ranks of the Zionists and settlers going forward. I don't see how all of this doesn't just result in things getting worse.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

There is no "finishing this". This is the greatest recruitment operation of future anti-Israel terrorists of all time.

We have countless examples of this in history. The amount of kids that will grow up and remember their slain family members and dedicate their lives to revenge is going to be huge. They represent a massive amount of fuel to be thrown on this fire in the coming decades.

Just as the October 7th attacks are sure to bolster the ranks of the Zionists and settlers going forward. I don't see how all of this doesn't just result in things getting worse.

The whole society is already the biggest terrorist recruitment operation in history. What other society has a school and religious system receiving billions of dollars from external sources and unlimited weapons to train children to kill another group of people?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

There is no "finishing this". This is the greatest recruitment operation of future anti-Israel terrorists of all time.

We have countless examples of this in history. The amount of kids that will grow up and remember their slain family members and dedicate their lives to revenge is going to be huge. They represent a massive amount of fuel to be thrown on this fire in the coming decades.

Just as the October 7th attacks are sure to bolster the ranks of the Zionists and settlers going forward. I don't see how all of this doesn't just result in things getting worse.

Can you name at least few examples from history? Because history that I know shows the opposite. Nuking Japan did not produce thousands of kamikazes looking for revenge on USA. Carving up and occupying Germany did not produce thousands of German trying to get a revenge. It was actually NOT finishing off Germany in WWI that produced revengers. When people are truly defeated, they give up.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Bagor

What a dishonest post. Can you point me to to where I claimed that hospitals were being used "in some other way"?

Stay on point.
The justification for the attack on the hospital and the slaughter of newborn babies and other was that it was a major Hamas control centre.
That has shown to be false.

Stop cheating facts. It was never shown to be false. It was shown that:

1. Hamas built tunnels under the hospital, and you lied that those were built by Israel
2. Hamas was using those tunnels, unless you want to claim that they built it for fun and never actually used them.
3. All you have is the report by Washington Post, that states that although there were definitely tunnels there, they didn't find enough evidence to decidedly conclude that the underground terror infrastructure was used exactly as a control center, as opposed to being used in some other way. That's it. That's all you have.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

Stopping bombing everything and everyone where ever they are, even the places the bombers send them to will certainly save lives. If you think taking action that indiscriminately destroys everyone and everything amongst an entire populous, is a solution, you are no better than the evil you claim you’re trying to eradicate.

I was a part for the country that started the war. The Ukrainian one. I saw Russians lining up in Zs, handing out subpoenas, subduing protesters. I saw literally thousands of normal, usual people, either going to the war, or doing their part of supporting the war. And I was wondering why they are doing it. And, more importantly, what could stop them. Putin us just a man. He does not have supernatural ability to hypnotize people into obeying him. Yet millions act as if they were hypnotized. It was horrible, and it was such behavior by people of Russia, rather than Putin, that led to massacre of innocent Ukrainians. Not just civilians, because you know, Ukrainian soldiers are also innocent.

And I thought, how to counter it?

And after witnessing the country that starts the war with my own eyes, and thinking about it long and hard, because it change my whole life, I understood one thing.

To stop a war, to prevent future wars, you need to put the onus on people, rather than on a dictator. On civilians, rather than on military. You need to make ordinary civilians scared that their country will try to attack someone. You can't let them hide in the bunker of "I'm just an innocent civilian, brainwashed by dictator". Russians would have topple Putin themselves, long ago, if they knew that attack on Ukraine would result in some indiscriminate bombing of Moscow. Dictators are not superhumans, they can't hypnotize people. People follow dictators by choice. They are scared of dictator's police, but that police is made up of ordinary people, who joined by choice.

With the current system, if a country starts a war, only its leadership is responsible. That's the flaw. That's why we have wars. The whole country must be held responsible. Because if they know they are to be punished for their government starting the war, they would disobey the dictator. They would topple him because they would be scared of being carpet bombed more, than being scared of dictator's police.

Examples of this? Germany and Japan. Millions of Germans followed Hitler. Then they saw their cities bombed, country occupied and divided. The whole country, not just Nazi leadership, was punished for their crimes. And never tried to start a war ever since. They are pacifists now. They hate wars. Japan attacked USA. People on the streets of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, along with other towns, were cheering for the success of Perl Harbor attack. It never dawned on them, that it's them, ordinary people, who will be held responsible for the attack. They thought they are just innocent civilians, but they were nuked for what their country did. Now they learled the lesson and are the most pacifist country in the region. They never let warmongers run their country again.

Similarly, if Gazans knew that this is what they will get for letting Hamas run the country, they would have rid Hamas themselves, instead of cheering for naked raped Jews being paraded on Gaza streets.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

It's kind of sad when people who are theoretically smart and do know their history better than this bend themselves in pretzels to support mass violence towards a mostly civilian population.

You know as well as I do that your original theory was nonsense and doesn't actually hold up. It's why I really just bother to show up in this thread to say that, but there's no real point in "debating" you.

The only thing left is to keep pointing out that this is nonsense, so that you don't accidentally think you "made a point".

No you didn't. You spewed nonsense because you don't want to give up an untenable position.

You are inconsistent. You said, literally, that I have Ukranian blood on my hands, as I was citizen of Russia when the war has started. You said, that I no longer have the right to live not in the war zone. I actually have no problem with your take, quoted below. But if this is what you stand for, you have to be consistent. You said that it is perfectly legitimate to kill me, just because I live in Russia. The very same should be applied to Palestenian civilians:

Originally Posted by Itse

You are, personally, supporting the Russian offensive with your taxes. You are not some innocent bystander in this, much as you would wish to be. Some of that Ukrainian blood is in your hands too.

Opinions are not magic. There is no meaningful difference between you and a Putin supporter, as long as both of you do your job quietly and pay your taxes. Your personal opinion does not make you any less a collaborator.

This attitude that people have with wars is much of the problem. You refuse to accept that your government has given another country every right to attack your country. You no longer have a right to not live in a war zone. If the Ukrainians bring the war to you, that's completely fair and also legal according to international law. That's what Putin has done to you. That's what those his police thugs are fighting for when they are putting down those anti-war demonstrations, they are fighting for the right of Ukrainians to attack you just as much as they are fighting
for the right of Russians to kill Ukrainians.

Yes you could theoretically be killed in a perfectly legitimate military operation just because you live in Russia. The odds are astronomically small because nobodu wants a nuclear war, but that risk is what your government has done to you.

And if Russians somehow think that supporting Putin harder is a way to keep you safe, well there's your problem right there.

The longer Russians think it's safer to be quiet, the more danger the whole world is in.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Genuinely curious what you think Israel should do to eliminate Hamas and how they should go about doing it.

Or do you think that a ceasefire is better, and just leave Hamas alone?

I have at no single point said or even alluded in the most minute way to Israel leaving Hamas alone. If I had a solution to how it could be done easily, trust me, I’d share it.

But blowing the #### out of an entire population with no care for the welfare of anyone within it is not the way to do it - either morally or tactically.

There was however a time when had Israel followed the advice to “just leave Hamas alone” that would have been a winning strategy. Israel helping to create this monster has played a massive role in this tragedy.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I was a part for the country that started the war. The Ukrainian one. I saw Russians lining up in Zs, handing out subpoenas, subduing protesters. I saw literally thousands of normal, usual people, either going to the war, or doing their part of supporting the war. And I was wondering why they are doing it. And, more importantly, what could stop them. Putin us just a man. He does not have supernatural ability to hypnotize people into obeying him. Yet millions act as if they were hypnotized. It was horrible, and it was such behavior by people of Russia, rather than Putin, that led to massacre of innocent Ukrainians. Not just civilians, because you know, Ukrainian soldiers are also innocent.

And I thought, how to counter it?

And after witnessing the country that starts the war with my own eyes, and thinking about it long and hard, because it change my whole life, I understood one thing.

To stop a war, to prevent future wars, you need to put the onus on people, rather than on a dictator. On civilians, rather than on military. You need to make ordinary civilians scared that their country will try to attack someone. You can't let them hide in the bunker of "I'm just an innocent civilian, brainwashed by dictator". Russians would have topple Putin themselves, long ago, if they knew that attack on Ukraine would result in some indiscriminate bombing of Moscow. Dictators are not superhumans, they can't hypnotize people. People follow dictators by choice. They are scared of dictator's police, but that police is made up of ordinary people, who joined by choice.

With the current system, if a country starts a war, only its leadership is responsible. That's the flaw. That's why we have wars. The whole country must be held responsible. Because if they know they are to be punished for their government starting the war, they would disobey the dictator. They would topple him because they would be scared of being carpet bombed more, than being scared of dictator's police.

Examples of this? Germany and Japan. Millions of Germans followed Hitler. Then they saw their cities bombed, country occupied and divided. The whole country, not just Nazi leadership, was punished for their crimes. And never tried to start a war ever since. They are pacifists now. They hate wars. Japan attacked USA. People on the streets of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, along with other towns, were cheering for the success of Perl Harbor attack. It never dawned on them, that it's them, ordinary people, who will be held responsible for the attack. They thought they are just innocent civilians, but they were nuked for what their country did. Now they learled the lesson and are the most pacifist country in the region. They never let warmongers run their country again.

Similarly, if Gazans knew that this is what they will get for letting Hamas run the country, they would have rid Hamas themselves, instead of cheering for naked raped Jews being paraded on Gaza streets.

I really don’t want to ever get inside your head, because that is sick and twisted logic that advocates for the worst kind of war crimes. Taken to its logical conclusion, what you advocate for is actually worse than the tragedy that exists today.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

There is no "finishing this". This is the greatest recruitment operation of future anti-Israel terrorists of all time.

We have countless examples of this in history. The amount of kids that will grow up and remember their slain family members and dedicate their lives to revenge is going to be huge. They represent a massive amount of fuel to be thrown on this fire in the coming decades.

Just as the October 7th attacks are sure to bolster the ranks of the Zionists and settlers going forward. I don't see how all of this doesn't just result in things getting worse.

What examples? Germany and Japan are the biggest examples in recent history of people brought to their knees by a stronger force and now they're better for it, sooner or later the extreme faction of Islam is going to have to stop with the terrorism and learn to live along side their neighbours, if they don't... not to far into the future these little 2000lb bombs will look like firecrackers and the whole middle east won't be liveable for a 1000 years.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Pointman

1. Hamas built tunnels under the hospital, and you lied that those were built by Israel
2. Hamas was using those tunnels, unless you want to claim that they built it for fun and never actually used them.
3. All you have is the report by Washington Post, that states that although there were definitely tunnels there, they didn't find enough evidence to decidedly conclude that the underground terror infrastructure was used exactly as a control center, as opposed to being used in some other way. That's it. That's all you have.

Again. Stay on point.
The premise for attacking that hospital and the slaughter of infants, newborns and other civilians was that there was a major command centre under the hospital.
There is ZERO evidence of this. Nothing. Unless you can present otherwise.

Israel already knew there were tunnels under the hospital given they built them.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

I really don’t want to ever get inside your head, because that is sick and twisted logic that advocates for the worst kind of war crimes. Taken to its logical conclusion, what you advocate for is actually worse than the tragedy that exists today.

The ironic part about Pointman's narrative is that he initially supported Russia against weaker Ukraine then suddenly changed their mind when it became apparent that they might be conscripted for military service and fed into the meat grinder. At that point they abandoned their native country and fled to another only to support similar military action against another weaker enemy and espouse some of the most dark and hateful rhetoric on this topic. There are some incredible mental gymnastics required to maintain the positions they do when they "fled for their life" from their homeland and have been in this new country for less than a year. I'm not sure how someone squares these things.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

The ironic part about Pointman's narrative is that he initially supported Russia against weaker Ukraine then suddenly changed their mind when it became apparent that they might be conscripted for military service and fed into the meat grinder. At that point they abandoned their native country and fled to another only to support similar military action against another weaker enemy and espouse some of the most dark and hateful rhetoric on this topic. There are some incredible mental gymnastics required to maintain the positions they do when they "fled for their life" from their homeland and have been in this new country for less than a year. I'm not sure how someone squares these things.

Pointman never supported the Russian invasion of Ukraine. You're either misremembering, or more likely, using your own extreme powers of mental gymnastics to twist what he said to fit your current narrative.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

What examples?

Basically every other attempt to wipe out Islamic terrorist groups in the region:

https://press.armywarcollege.edu/cgi...US%20did%20not.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27820984

[Language]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Basically every other attempt to wipe out Islamic terrorist groups in the region:

https://press.armywarcollege.edu/cgi...US%20did%20not.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27820984

So the solution, per that last article, is MORE aid into Gaza??

The amount of aid that Gaza has received, and continues to receive, and that it has squandered, is obscene. Billions and billions of dollars. All wasted on tunnels and weapons, and lining the pockets of their “leadership” in Qatar. The whole aid to Gaza is such a charade

The solution should be the exact opposite. Less aid needs to be provided to squeeze out Hamas with political pressure. And because that’s not going to happen, the only solution left is a military one to remove Hamas.

Can those critical of Israel’s operations provide an alternate reality of how Israel can achieve their stated goals, of removing Hamas’s military capabilities?

This is assuming that you are:
a) critical of Israel's operations, and
b) agree that Hamas needs to go

There is no political solution with a terrorist group whose stated aim is the murder of Jews and destruction of the state of Israel - I think most can at least acknowledge that? So what can they do? Everyone yelling ceasefire will just give Hamas time to re-arm.

Everyone loves to criticize but no one can provide a better solution. I’d love to hear it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

I have at no single point said or even alluded in the most minute way to Israel leaving Hamas alone. If I had a solution to how it could be done easily, trust me, I’d share it.

But blowing the #### out of an entire population with no care for the welfare of anyone within it is not the way to do it - either morally or tactically.

There was however a time when had Israel followed the advice to “just leave Hamas alone” that would have been a winning strategy. Israel helping to create this monster has played a massive role in this tragedy.

If Israel intended to do what you say, they would be indiscriminately launching bombs into Gaza. They would be smashing hospitals, they would be smashing schools, and hitting heavily populated areas. This is what Hamas is attempting to do to Israel. Hamas just isn’t having much success.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

If Israel intended to do what you say, they would be indiscriminately launching bombs into Gaza. They would be smashing hospitals, they would be smashing schools, and hitting heavily populated areas. This is what Hamas is attempting to do to Israel. Hamas just isn’t having much success.

Israel has done all of this. Hundreds of schools, hospitals and medical clinics, entire neighborhoods, and refugee camps have been flattened and tens of thousands of people have died.

[PepsiFree]

I find the whole “what’s your solution???” appeal to authority hilarious. Just because the IDF is taking one approach, every Israeli government bootlicker has decided that is the one and only true solution, and suddenly their imagination fails them in coming up with any military operation that isn’t dropping 2000 pound bombs on entire neighbourhoods and purposefully making Gaza and inhabitable wasteland.

The same people who keep bringing up the fact that they could “Hiroshima” the place are the same people who suddenly can’t recall a single other military operation that was less destructive than Israel’s, because they’re perfect and as long as people aren’t willing to repeatedly bring up examples of military operations that have incurred lower civilian costs (as they have throughout this thread, posts these same people have responded to and are now pretending don’t exist) then they can feel comfortable that the vast majority of dead babies they pretended to be upset about originally are all Palestinian now, and they’re just “animals” anyway.

If you actually cared about whether Israel’s approach was right, or whether all these dead kids were actually worth it, you wouldn’t need to demand someone else do the work for you, you’d have already done it.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Israel has done all of this. Hundreds of schools, hospitals and medical clinics, entire neighborhoods, and refugee camps have been flattened and tens of thousands of people have died.

Hundreds of schools? Source please.

Hundreds of hospitals? Source please.

Hundreds of medical clinics? Source please.

I do recall a refugee camp hit, but I recall Hamas was hiding in the camp. I could be wrong though.

As for the entire neighbourhoods, I think it goes without saying that Israel has the firepower to do significantly more of this, if they wanted, the entire place would be flattened.

Do you agree that Hamas is attempting to do all the things you outlined above?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Hundreds of schools? Source please.

Hundreds of hospitals? Source please.

Hundreds of medical clinics? Source please.

I do recall a refugee camp hit, but I recall Hamas was hiding in the camp. I could be wrong though.

As for the entire neighbourhoods, I think it goes without saying that Israel has the firepower to do significantly more of this, if they wanted, the entire place would be flattened.

Do you agree that Hamas is attempting to do all the things you outlined above?

"it could be worse" is one of my favourite types of posts in this thread. We really need a Bingo card.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

"it could be worse" is one of my favourite types of posts in this thread. We really need a Bingo card.

Bingo. You win.