Russia invades Ukraine

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Pointman

No they don't. There's no such thing as a right to kill people. If Ukranian bombs will start to fall on the head of my two years old, do you expect me to say "Too bad, my son, it's a well-deserved punishment, our troops shouldn't have committed all those crimes". Of course not. It will become a fight for survival. Any concepts of "rightfulness" and "fairness" would be irrelevant at that point.

That's a fair response, but of course they have every right.

They are at war with you. You are at war with them. That's what being at war means. Train stations are very legitimate targets as centers of logistics in a war.

You are, personally, supporting the Russian offensive with your taxes. You are not some innocent bystander in this, much as you would wish to be. Some of that Ukrainian blood is in your hands too.

Opinions are not magic. There is no meaningful difference between you and a Putin supporter, as long as both of you do your job quietly and pay your taxes. Your personal opinion does not make you any less a collaborator.

This attitude that people have with wars is much of the problem. You refuse to accept that your government has given another country every right to attack your country. You no longer have a right to not live in a war zone. If the Ukrainians bring the war to you, that's completely fair and also legal according to international law. That's what Putin has done to you. That's what those his police thugs are fighting for when they are putting down those anti-war demonstrations, they are fighting for the right of Ukrainians to attack you just as much as they are fighting
for the right of Russians to kill Ukrainians.

Yes you could theoretically be killed in a perfectly legitimate military operation just because you live in Russia. The odds are astronomically small because nobodu wants a nuclear war, but that risk is what your government has done to you.

And if Russians somehow think that supporting Putin harder is a way to keep you safe, well there's your problem right there.

The longer Russians think it's safer to be quiet, the more danger the whole world is in.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Is it a fact the USA took down USSR? Genuine question.

Yes. Bush himself claimed that USA won the cold war.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Boy you sure are concerned about our empathy toward Russians when they're the ones fataing slaughtering Ukrainians. JFC

Pointman's not slaughtering Ukrainians. He is a person just like me. He opposes the war. He and his family are also having their lives negatively affected by something out of their control. I feel empathy for him.

The fact that I feel empathy for people in Ukraine who are suffering from this war does not make me incapable of feeling empathy for people in Russia who are also suffering. The degrees of suffering may be very different, but empathy is not zero sum.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Yes. Bush himself claimed that USA won the cold war.

Didn't the USSR basically bankrupt itself, though? Afghanistan, corruption, failure of communism, etc.?

The USA clearly won the cold war, but that doesn't mean the USA "took down" the USSR. I was always under the impression the USSR basically took down itself, but I'm no expert.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Russian became fair game Feb 24/22.

You should feel lucky the Ukrainians exercised restraint from 2014 onward.

I'm sorry while I don't want to see your two year old injured or dead, there is plenty of death and destruction occurring in Ukraine. Why not share it around.

This is a pretty awful and messed up thing to express.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Okay, I get that we're really far away from your reality, but are you saying that the country your country attacked shouldn't be allowed to fight you back?

Like, isn't that the obvious risk you take as a country when you invade somebody is them fighting back?

Originally Posted by Sliver

lol. In the mind of Pointman, even defending yourself against Russia is interpreted as a slight against Russia that will drive more people into Putin's arms. Hardly the impartial guy I'd point to for support.

How do think the US public would have felt about the Iraq war if an Iraqi suicide bomber blew up an airport in the US? Do you think it would have caused people to take stock and realize that the US was in the wrong, or would it have bolstered support for it? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

That doesn't mean Ukraine can't or shouldn't attack Russia; Russia started a war and should expect a response. But you can't expect people on the receiving end of that (particularly when they're inundated with propaganda) to react how you think they should. And just being a citizen/resident of a country that is attacking another doesn't mean you're a legitimate target. If that were the case, Americans (and Canadians to some extent) would have no expectation of safety anywhere in the world.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

This is a pretty awful and messed up thing to express.

If bombing Russian civilians forces Russia to stop bombing Ukrainians, is that not a net win? Similar to how the US hit Hiroshima, there are arguments to be made it was a net benefit over the alternative. Is it ugly and horrible? Yes. But the fewer lives lost, the better. Russia isn't interested in world peace, so pretending they will just stop without force seems fantasy at this point. Should only Ukraine be fair territory for mass murder? What would you propose Ukraine does at this point?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

.
You are, personally, supporting the Russian offensive with your taxes. You are not some innocent bystander in this, much as you would wish to be. Some of that Ukrainian blood is in your hands too.

Opinions are not magic. There is no meaningful difference between you and a Putin supporter, as long as both of you do your job quietly and pay your taxes. Your personal opinion does not make you any less a collaborator.

It's correct, yet also misleading. What if I leave my job tomorrow and stop paying taxes? Will it somehow save me from possible attack? Of course no. Because of the nature of the war zone, I would be killed simply because I am Russian. Not because I paid taxes. Not because I was doing my job quietly. Will this be fair? Is it fair to kill Zadorov too? He has played for Red Army in his youth. He also has probably paid more taxes than me. You may view it as fair, I actually can understand that. But I sure won't go down like "oh well, I paid taxes so I have blood on my hands too, now I have to take it as a man".

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Of course it is an obvious risk that Ukranians fight back. Once they do, it would literally threat my family. From that point I will obviously have no choice but to do whatever it takes to keep my family safe. I will no longer have luxury of sitting on the couch and moralizing about how wrong Russia is (and they are very wrong). I, along with many Russians, will have to switch from "oh Lord what a HORRIBLE crimes our country is doing" to "oh boy, they are coming after us, we have to fight to survive" mode.

Just stop and think about this for a second.

Let's take the obvious example, Nazi Germany.

Did fighting for the Nazi regime in any way help protect Germany? Of course it didn't. All it did was make the war become worse and longer and make people hate Germans more.

You can not protect your family by fighting for Putins government. You can only make things worse that way, because he is not fighting to protect you.

If Putin wins this war (likely already impossible), he will start another war because he has so much hatred towards those who resisted and because he likes winning wars.

If Putin loses this war, he will start another war to wipe away the shame of the loss.

There is no scenario where fighting for Putin can make you or your family any safer.

You can only make things safer by fighting for a safer leadership, or leaving.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

This is a pretty awful and messed up thing to express.

War, which is what Russia is waging in Ukraine, is awful and messed up.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If bombing Russian civilians forces Russia to stop bombing Ukrainians, is that not a net win? Similar to how the US hit Hiroshima, there are arguments to be made it was a net benefit over the alternative. Is it ugly and horrible? Yes. But the fewer lives lost, the better. Russia isn't interested in world peace, so pretending they will just stop without force seems fantasy at this point. Should only Ukraine be fair territory for mass murder? What would you propose Ukraine does at this point?

I don't read that post as an expression of the net benefit of some loss of civilian lives for the sake of saving many more. If that's the intended sentiment, it's very poorly expressed. Reads a lot more like an “eye for an eye” and “I don't want to see your child killed, but...” kind of post.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

No they don't. There's no such thing as a right to kill people. If Ukranian bombs will start to fall on the head of my two years old, do you expect me to say "Too bad, my son, it's a well-deserved punishment, our troops shouldn't have committed all those crimes". Of course not. It will become a fight for survival. Any concepts of "rightfulness" and "fairness" would be irrelevant at that point.

They have a right to self defense. If attacking Russia helps, they have the right to protect themselves. It sucks that Russian citizens are in the middle here, but Putin did that, not Ukraine. Saying they don't have a right to defend in any way necessary is indicative that you value Russian lives more than Ukrainians. Obviously you value your and your families life the most, as we all do. But objectively speaking, all of Russia is fair game for Ukraine to attack, as Russia has shown zero restraint in their illegal unprovoked war. You must be able to recognize that.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Pointman

When USA took down USSR, they didn't ban Russians all out. They were smarter than that. In fact, they were showing Russians a better world (Summit series, Canada Cup and all), giving Nobel prizes to Russian writers such as Pasternak and Brodsky, bringing western music to USSR and such.

The USSR downed itself

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I see things like athlete bans being just as likely or more likely to make things worse now, and also to make things worse in the long run. That may or may not be correct. It's an empirical issue that I don't think either of us currently have presented evidence to settle one way or the other. I intuitively disagree with you, but would be open to changing my mind if there were persuasive evidence.

I do however object to the suggestion that I'm focused on broing out with the Russians who are killing people today. I'm not. That's not all Russians. Someone having Russian nationality doesn't make them a murderer or a supporter of violence by virtue of that nationality alone.

Frankly though, I do think people from all places being able to “bro out” together should be the goal. That's a future we should always be working towards.

2022 Russia is the equivalent of Nazi Germany. And this is really not a hyperbole. We need to call a spade a spade.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia....ew%20Brunswick.

Internment of Canadian Germans in both world wars were a very real thing in Canada, and should this ever escalate to NATO involvement, war changes the 'bro out' mentality.

Make no mistake, while Putin is leading, genocidal sentiment against Ukrainians, and those atrocities are being committed by Russians. By association, Russians are responsible for their government or need to deal with it.

That a few Russian players can't play tennis, and that Instagram models are burning their Coach bag in protest to them leaving, breaks my heart, really.

When Germany lost the war, germans were forced to walk at concentration camps to see the atrocities first hand, no longer being able to hide in denial and ignorance or make excuses.

All Russians should be forced to walk in Bucha and Mariupol. Then we can talk about them being able to play tennis outside their country again.

[Fuzz]

So, Russian news propaganda is a real problem, right? They sell Putin's message, and are the only ones permitted to do so in Russia. This is clear war propaganda. Would bombing a Russian propaganda news station be something you consider a fair target?

[burn_this_city]

I think we are running into discussions which are going to be difficult to resolve when we don't share the same set of facts or outlook on personal responsibility. The difference in cultural blueprint between someone growing up in Russia vs the west is more massive than people appreciate. We don't have the same core belief systems.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

So, Russian news propaganda is a real problem, right? They sell Putin's message, and are the only ones permitted to do so in Russia. This is clear war propaganda. Would bombing a Russian propaganda news station be something you consider a fair target?

You can't bomb propaganda away, that's not how propaganda works. It's not a physical thing.

But you can physically destroy a train because that's how trains work.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Firebot

2022 Russia is the equivalent of Nazi Germany. And this is really not a hyperbole. We need to call a spade a spade.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia....ew%20Brunswick.

Internment of Canadian Germans in both world wars were a very real thing in Canada, and should this ever escalate to NATO involvement, war changes the 'bro out' mentality.

Holy Fu**....

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

They have a right to self defense. If attacking Russia helps, they have the right to protect themselves. It sucks that Russian citizens are in the middle here, but Putin did that, not Ukraine. Saying they don't have a right to defend in any way necessary is indicative that you value Russian lives more than Ukrainians. Obviously you value your and your families life the most, as we all do. But objectively speaking, all of Russia is fair game for Ukraine to attack, as Russia has shown zero restraint in their illegal unprovoked war. You must be able to recognize that.

Russia has surely shown no restrain in this awful unprovoked war. Do you believe it's a fair game to rape and torture Russians because that's what our troops did? Is it fair game to rape and torture some random Americans because of this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_...prisoner_abuse

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Holy Fu**....

I'm skeptical we would ever consider something like that even in the event of total war, but I think people are misunderstanding the clash of civilization type thing that is happening in Ukraine.