Israel declares war on Hamas

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

She doesn’t speak for all Jews. If anything she speaks for the minority, but the group with their heads on their shoulders and not up their collective asses. In short, go #### yourself and your belief that YOU speak for Jews beyond yourself. You speak for no one but those who the rest of the world is speaking out against.

I did not claim to speak for all Jews. I am not the one telling posters to be careful what they post or people will hate Jews. That was you

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Beninho

The posters claiming a genocide use fringe academics from backwater universities, then when provided with arguments that negate that criticism they do not engage with it while laying every ounce of blame on to Israel.

Here’s a couple of the “fringe” academics from “backwater” universities you’ve mocked and dismissed:

Omer Bartov:

Omer Bartov (Hebrew: עֹמֶר בַּרְטוֹב, [ʕoˈmer ˈbartov]; born 1954) is an Israeli-born historian. He is the Samuel Pisar Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Brown University, where he has taught since 2000.[1] Bartov is a noted historian of the Holocaust and is considered one of the world's leading authorities on genocide.[2][3] The Forward calls him "one of the foremost scholars of Jewish life in Galicia."[4]

Dov Waxman:

Dov Waxman (born June 5, 1974) is an author, academic and commentator. He is the Rosalinde and Arthur Gilbert Foundation Professor of Israel Studies at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA), and the director of the UCLA Younes and Soraya Nazarian Center for Israel Studies. Waxman is an internationally recognized expert on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, Jewish–Arab relations in Israel, Israeli politics and foreign policy, Israel–United States relations, American Jewry’s relationship with Israel, Jewish politics, and contemporary Antisemitism.

I was not aware we were referring to Brown, an Ivy league school, or UCLA as “backwater” but I suppose when the only goal is to discredit a narrative different from your own and the only approach you know is to throw out endless, absurd accusation after accusation, it makes a bit more sense.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I did not claim to speak for all Jews. I am not the one telling posters to be careful what they post or people will hate Jews. That was you

Hey..... You're back!
What happened?
You staying or are you really really really leaving this time?

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Here’s a couple of the “fringe” academics from “backwater” universities you’ve mocked and dismissed:

Omer Bartov:


Dov Waxman:



I was not aware we were referring to Brown, an Ivy league school, or UCLA as “backwater” but I suppose when the only goal is to discredit a narrative different from your own and the only approach you know is to throw out endless, absurd accusation after accusation, it makes a bit more sense.

I was referring to Segal and Finkelstein. Waxman does not believe a genocide is taking place.

See here.

https://jewishcurrents.org/letters/o...se-of-genocide

My issue is with the usage of the word genocide. As Waxman says
“However, to claim that genocide is already occurring requires stretching the concept too far, emptying it of any meaning.”

Thanks for proving my point. Peace

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I did not claim to speak for all Jews. I am not the one telling posters to be careful what they post or people will hate Jews. That was you

You are correct. That was me. And you are a perfect example of behaviors that spurn anti-Israel and anti-Jew rhetoric. You’ll notice no one in this thread has done either, but you continue to spew rhetoric that turns people against the cause you support. You are the Yoho of this debate, presenting the most divisive and hateful rhetoric that is counter to your side’s position.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I was referring to Segal and Finkelstein. Waxman does not believe a genocide is taking place.

See here.

https://jewishcurrents.org/letters/o...se-of-genocide

My issue is with the usage of the word genocide. As Waxman says
“However, to claim that genocide is already occurring requires stretching the concept too far, emptying it of any meaning.”

Thanks for proving my point. Peace

Only one of us is struggling with differing points of view on these subjects, so I’m happy to share the thoughts of academics that disagree with others and my own feelings on the subject. It’s the same reason I took zero issue and didn’t try to mock or dismiss you when presented Pensky’s thoughts. He’s worthy of respect and consideration. You should try giving the same to Bartov and try actually reading that article.

That said, if you respect Waxman and the university he works out of, and you trust him enough to prove “your point” for you, is it safe to assume that you’d like to walk back your comment about “from river to sea”? Because Waxman disagrees with you. And you’ve already mocked him for disagreeing with you, so which is it? Is he reputable enough that you’re willing to leave your point in his hands alone? Or are you going to go back to mocking him when he says something you disagree with?

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

You are correct. That was me. And you are a perfect example of behaviors that spurn anti-Israel and anti-Jew rhetoric. You’ll notice no one in this thread has done either, but you continue to spew rhetoric that turns people against the cause you support. You are the Yoho of this debate, presenting the most divisive and hateful rhetoric that is counter to your side’s position.

So you choose to hate Jews because of a Jewish persons opinion that you disagree with? Do you do this with all minority groups or just Jews?
If my posts on an online forum regarding one of the most polarizing conflicts in the world make you not like Jews you didn’t like Jews already.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Here’s a couple of the “fringe” academics from “backwater” universities you’ve mocked and dismissed:

Omer Bartov:


Dov Waxman:



I was not aware we were referring to Brown, an Ivy league school, or UCLA as “backwater” but I suppose when the only goal is to discredit a narrative different from your own and the only approach you know is to throw out endless, absurd accusation after accusation, it makes a bit more sense.

Dov Waxman is specifically stating it's not a genocide:

https://jewishcurrents.org/letters/o...se-of-genocide

But while Israel’s relentless and devastating aerial bombing of Gaza is certainly killing many Palestinian civilians, it does not seem to be aimed at simply killing as many Palestinians as possible; if that were the case, the casualties would undoubtedly be even higher, given the military force at Israel’s disposal. Though they do not amount to genocide, the seemingly indiscriminate bombing of apartment buildings and civilian infrastructure in Gaza, with apparently little if any effort to avoid civilian casualties, appears to be a war crime under international law, as does the forced displacement of civilians. And it is clear that some within the far-right Israeli government would like to seize this opportunity to drive Palestinians out of the Gaza Strip entirely, just as they hope to do with Palestinians in the West Bank, in an act of mass ethnic cleansing. For our warnings about this frightening possibility to be taken seriously, we must avoid making unsubstantiated charges of genocide.

He's a critic of the current action, but specifically states it's not genocide and it's a disservice to actual genocide to say it is.

[PsYcNeT]

I don't understand how you can be so dense as to not realize that Israelis calling Palestinians "human animals", murdering 20,000+ civilians and climbing in two months and then having all these weird diaspora Jews elsewhere baying for continued bloodshed and continuously carrying water for their grotesquery might...just might give some Goyim pause and go "What the #### is wrong with the Jews?"

Lord knows I'm having a pretty massive identity struggle the last while.

[Bagor]

Is this considered a war crime given it happened in the West Bank.
MSF sound as if enough is enough.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1735273893042999786

https://twitter.com/user/status/1735273897828765952

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Is this considered a war crime given it happened in the West Bank.
MSF sound as if enough is enough.

I've already seen people saying that Doctors Without Borders is in the wrong here and obviously they are helping/being duped by Hamas (yes, in the West Bank).

These people are truly broken.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

Dov Waxman is specifically stating it's not a genocide:

https://jewishcurrents.org/letters/o...se-of-genocide



He's a critic of the current action, but specifically states it's not genocide and it's a disservice to actual genocide to say it is.

I’m fully aware. Beninho has mocked Waxman’s position on other topics, which is why I brought him up.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I've already seen people saying that Doctors Without Borders is in the wrong here and obviously they are helping/being duped by Hamas (yes, in the West Bank).

These people are truly broken.

Yes they are.
Waiting for blankall to claim it was WHO that shot it up.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Beninho

So you choose to hate Jews because of a Jewish persons opinion that you disagree with? Do you do this with all minority groups or just Jews?
If my posts on an online forum regarding one of the most polarizing conflicts in the world make you not like Jews you didn’t like Jews already.

I don’t hate Jews. I disagree with the policy of Israel and their treatment of Palestinians. I hate people that try and make this an ethnocentric issue when it is a political issue. Never conflate the two, which you do all the time. I know many Jews and they are all quality people, so there is no reason to hate them. I also know multiple Palestinians/Arabs and know them to be quality people. No reason to turn this into anything but the the political issue it is, but you continue to do so because you can’t separate the two. Now continue on with your nonsense that is based on hate and division. You get what sow.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I don’t hate Jews. I disagree with the policy of Israel and their treatment of Palestinians. I hate people that try and make this an ethnocentric issue when it is a political issue. Never conflate the two, which you do all the time. I know many Jews and they are all quality people, so there is no reason to hate them. I also know multiple Palestinians/Arabs and know them to be quality people. No reason to turn this into anything but the the political issue it is, but you continue to do so because you can’t separate the two. Now continue on with your nonsense that is based on hate and division. You get what sow.

So people shouldn’t hate a group of people based on the opinion of someone from said group of people? Agreed. But here you are threatening that people may hate my ethnic or religious group based on my opinion on a subject on an online forum because you disagree with it. Thank you for contradicting your previous statement, again do you threaten that to everyone you disagree with or just Jews you disagree with?

Also pretty funny you bring up a anecdotal story of your wifes cousin who is a converted Jew to try and prove some point about antisemitism. As a converted Jew you should remind her that her ancestors did not get ethnically cleansed and then mass murdered in the worst genocide in human history spurring the need for their own state, nor were they booted out of their country after the creation of Israel. Sounds like someone is speaking for Jews from a position of privilege while not having the generational trauma of being from one of the most hated groups of people on the planet. 90% of Jews believe in the right for Israel to exist and defend itself. But like you said we are just the bad jews with no heads on our shoulders.

Shabbat Shalom Lanny and happy holidays

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

She doesn’t speak for all Jews. If anything she speaks for the minority, but the group with their heads on their shoulders and not up their collective asses. In short, go #### yourself and your belief that YOU speak for Jews beyond yourself. You speak for no one but those who the rest of the world is speaking out against.

Telling me to go #### myself, luckily for you lanny I am not as soft as you so I really could care less if you get banned and I don’t report people like a snowflake. You should be kinder tho! Hopefully Santa doesn’t give you any coal for Christmas!

[KelVarnsen]

I’m remembering why I don’t read this thread

[Manhattanboy]

Bill Maher’s final commentary for the year:

From the River to the Sea.

https://youtu.be/KP-CRXROorw?si=62PoQqKM-4DS4-N2

[Bagor]

IDF says Israeli hostages it killed in Gaza were bare chested and waving white flag
Revelation increases unease about Netanyahu’s indiscriminate conduct of military campaign and anger of hostage families.

Three Israeli hostages killed by the Israel Defence Forces in Gaza were bare chested and carrying a white flag when they were shot, according to an initial military investigation.

The killing of the three men – who were kidnapped by Hamas on 7 October during its assault on southern Israel – has triggered widespread anger and incredulity in Israel amid a mounting sense of anxiety over the safety of the remaining hostages in Gaza.

According to reports of the IDF probe in the Israeli media, the three men Yotam Haim, Samer El-Talalka and Alon Shamriz – all in their 20s – had somehow escaped their captors and were approaching an IDF position in the Shejaiya area of Gaza City where there has been heavy fighting.

One of the men was carrying a stick with a white cloth tied to it and all had removed their shirts. Spotting the three, an Israeli soldier on a rooftop, however, opened fire on the men, shouting “Terrorists!”.

While two of the hostages fell to the ground immediately, the third fled into a nearby building. When a commander arrived on the scene, the unit was ordered into the building where it killed the third hostage despite his pleas for help in Hebrew..

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ing-white-flag

[Manhattanboy]

Why would the IDF publicly release the additional details of the tragic mistake by its soldiers? It seems to be a signal to the government of Israel of the huge difficulties they face in attempting to rescue the remaining hostages on their own and that another deal is urgently needed.