Israel declares war on Hamas

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by SutterBrother

The one poster on the board who has lived through 2 wars in the last 18 months?

You can argue his points, but his perspective is unique and informative.

His perspective is certainly very interesting and unique - how many people fled Russia to not fight in a war and then end up in another war 12 months later... Crazy.

However the comment you are responding to is a fair comment. Sentences flagged by other posters in the past page or so of discussion certainly make my skin crawl. I think its fair to point those out.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s no different from a lot of comments in the Russian invasion of Ukraine thread. Posters high-fiving over the graphic videos of people cooked up in tanks or blown to pieces by drones, Russians are all animals, etc. For some posters this is as clear-cut a good guys vs bad guys war as that one.

It’s not a healthy or helpful way to treat something as awful as war. But maybe more understandable in people who live in the region or otherwise have a personal investment in the conflict.

Can you clarify that for me please?

Civilian casualties in Gaza are no different than soldier on soldier death on a battlefield? Yes or no will suffice.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Can you clarify that for me please?

Civilian casualties in Gaza are no different than soldier on soldier death on a battlefield? Yes or no will suffice.

There are people in the Ukraine thread who are happy to see Russian civilians dead too.

Nobody in this thread is cheering videos of Palestinian being blown to pieces (that I’ve seen), so no, it’s not a perfect analogy.

The point is once people turn a war into good guys vs bad guys, it makes it easy to dehumanize the enemy and give in to bloodlust.

[Fuzz]

The thing with this conflict is there are no good guys.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The thing with this conflict is there are no good guys.

For you. For others there very much are. These things are subjective.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

For some posters this is as clear-cut a good guys vs bad guys war as that one.

And then there is the rest that feels they're both repulsive.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

For you. For others there very much are. These things are subjective.

Anyone who thinks they are on the good side of this conflict is wrong. That's reality.

[Red Slinger]

I agree. There are only bad guys and victims in this conflict. The victims are on both sides of the border. The bad guys, however, are spread all over the world including Israel, Gaza, Syria, Iran, Russia, USA, UK and most UN members*

*with the possible exception of Tonga

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I put my money where my mouth is both with Ukrainian war (I left Russia) and Hamas war (I stay in Israel and contribute to the country). Those of you, who support Palestine, don't seem to be in the rush to help their cause.

You fled Russia because you were worried about your family and went to Israel before this conflict. You left Russia for yourself, which is totally acceptable.

Let's not play some moral highground because of it however. Your comments the last few pages are pretty gross.

Originally Posted by SutterBrother

The one poster on the board who has lived through 2 wars in the last 18 months?

You can argue his points, but his perspective is unique and informative.

Absolutely agree with that, never said anything different.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s no different from a lot of comments in the Russian invasion of Ukraine thread. Posters high-fiving over the graphic videos of people cooked up in tanks or blown to pieces by drones, Russians are all animals, etc. For some posters this is as clear-cut a good guys vs bad guys war as that one.

It’s not a healthy or helpful way to treat something as awful as war. But maybe more understandable in people who live in the region or otherwise have a personal investment in the conflict.

I think people who were/are against Russia's invasion and ravaging of civilians and infrastructure in Ukraine are being consistent to be against Israel's invasion of decimation of Gaza's people and infrastructure.

Obvious difference is how some of us view October 7. I view it as a horrendous terrorist attack. I don't think you destroy civilians, hospitals and other infrastructure for the actions of terrorists. That's punishing a population for the actions of a few. I mean, I think most of us would think it would be batshat crazy to bomb Pendleton, NY because that's where Timothy McVeigh is from. Does Pointman think we should have killed the Unibomber's family because Ted Kaczynski liked blowing people up? Anders Breivik killed 77 people at a summer camp in Norway - deadliest shooting in modern history. Who got bombed over that one?

Again, I see consistency in my thought process because I was against the invasion of Afghanistan and the invasion of Iraq after 9/11. Wanted to find the culprits; not just kill brown people.

A measured and appropriate response is also important. The Israeli government/army is completely out of line and has totally overblown their insane response. Is there a point they could go too far in the mind of a guy like Pointman? It really seems like he and his ilk have a 'kill 'em all' mentality. Even called them rotten to the core. Do you have kids, guy? How can a nine-year-old be "rotten to the core"? And maybe some can, but all of them? Israel is being unhinged and psychotic with the way they are murdering all these people.

I think it's weird how people bring up Jews and Muslims and Palestinians and Israelis as though one human life has more value over another. Isn't it just easier and more ethical to think of all these people as humans?

I don't know. If you're immediate response isn't to think the only rational first step is to stop killing people then your brain is wired totally different from mine. Even if you are an eye-for-an-eye sort of guy then Israel has more than passed that point. By that logic isn't Hamas owed a few more dead Israelis to even things out? (obviously I don't think that; I'm just saying if you think you get to kill 10 of them for every one of your dead then what's to stop them from having that exact same thought process and killing more of you?)

[Azure]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think it is important to recognise there is nothing Israel can do short of leaving the land completely, and I mean the whole of Israel, that will appease Hamas, the PLO and the Palestinians, Gazans dont want the West Bank, their ancestors never lived there, they want Haifa and Nazareth back, which is the end of Israel, they want the Jews to go back to Europe and nothing but that.

The idea that if Israel gives the West Bank back then Palestinians will happily give up the rest of their land is absurd, a free West Bank Palestine will be grimly poor, run by corrupt fundy morons who will explain their failures as all being Israel's fault, meanwhile Israel will be a rich land of wealth just across the border, Palestinians won't look at the rest of Muslim run middle east and see that all Islamic countries are massively poorer than their non Islamic counterparts, they will just see it as the fault of the Jews, that if they could just get the rest of Palestine back they would live like Muslims used to in the 14th century when Islam was rich powerful and dominated the world, that resentment will always be a tool for extremists

I think Israel has a moral obligation to try and give Palestinians some kind of freedom, a country of sorts, I think that will reduce to a degree the amount of violence it will face but it will never end it.

This is fitting.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1724252073267724688

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There are people in the Ukraine thread who are happy to see Russian civilians dead too.

Nobody in this thread is cheering videos of Palestinian being blown to pieces (that I’ve seen), so no, it’s not a perfect analogy.

The point is once people turn a war into good guys vs bad guys, it makes it easy to dehumanize the enemy and give in to bloodlust.

Or people who were mislead by the Russian government to come to Russia, had their passports stolen, and were sent to be cannon fodder on the front lines.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Bagor

And then there is the rest that feels they're both repulsive.

You keep saying 'equal', as if the actions are equal, which they are not, and in fact you are the one who is repulsive in thinking they are.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Azure

This is fitting.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1724252073267724688

Let's dispel some of this once and for all:

On the 96% of West Bank number:
The often-repeated line that Barak offered the Palestinians the Gaza Strip and 96% of the West Bank for a state is completely untrue. Barak offered the Palestinians 96% of Israel’s definition of the West Bank, meaning they did not include any of the areas already under Israeli control, such as settlements, the Dead Sea, and large parts of the Jordan Valley. This meant that Barak effectively annexed 10% of the West Bank to Israel, with an additional 8-12% remaining under “temporary” Israeli control for a period of time.

You can read more about this here:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...hepalestinians

On Jerusalem
In the case of East Jerusalem, which was supposed to be the capital of the Palestinian state, Israel refused any form of Palestinian sovereignty over the majority of the city, including many Palestinian neighborhoods. It should be noted that the PA agreed to Israeli sovereignty over Jewish neighborhoods and the Western wall, and even proposed Israel annex settlements in East Jerusalem in return for land swaps elsewhere. This was met with Israeli intransigence, and an insistence that the Noble Sanctuary remain under Israeli sovereignty, and that a part of it should be reserved for Jewish worshippers.

On Palestinian Sovereignty
Israel demanded permanent control of Palestinian airspace, three permanent military installations manned by Israeli troops in the West Bank, Israeli presence at Palestinian border crossings, and special “security arrangements” along the borders with Jordan which effectively annexed additional land. Israel would also be allowed to invade at any point in cases of “emergency”. What constituted an emergency was left incredibly vague and up to interpretation. The Palestinian state would be demilitarized, and the Palestinian government would not be able to enter into alliances without Israeli permission. None of these are ingredients for the creation of an actual sovereign state.

This is ultimately the map proposed by Israel in those accords.


Basically it was asking the Palestinians to permanently accept being forced into Bantustans and signing off on their permanent status as an occupied people.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Leondros

His perspective is certainly very interesting and unique - how many people fled Russia to not fight in a war and then end up in another war 12 months later... Crazy.

However the comment you are responding to is a fair comment. Sentences flagged by other posters in the past page or so of discussion certainly make my skin crawl. I think its fair to point those out.

In Pointman's defence I don't think he was arguing for genocide as a positive. He was just stating that many conflicts end when one side has been thoroughly beaten. As oppose to the counterargument that people were making about this conflict ending when Israel stops fighting Hamas. He could have definitely worded that better.

Edit: I also had not read his posts on the last page, before writing this. A a lot of stuff I definitely do not agree with.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s no different from a lot of comments in the Russian invasion of Ukraine thread. Posters high-fiving over the graphic videos of people cooked up in tanks or blown to pieces by drones, Russians are all animals, etc. For some posters this is as clear-cut a good guys vs bad guys war as that one.

It’s not a healthy or helpful way to treat something as awful as war. But maybe more understandable in people who live in the region or otherwise have a personal investment in the conflict.

Wasn't it really only undercoverbrother who was acting like that?

This is another one of those both side arguments that doesn't wash

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

Wasn't it really only undercoverbrother who was acting like that?

No

I was advocating for the eradication of all Russian Military lives currently in Ukraine.

Keep my name out of your voice

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

No
Keep my name out of your voice

You were getting a little blood thirsty, undercoverbrother

[Leondros]

nvm - I give up on this image embed thing, I'm dumb

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

You were getting a little blood thirsty, undercoverbrother

Yes, I was, as it pertained to Russian Military personnel.

I still am.

#### Ivan