Israel declares war on Hamas

[flamesfever]

Reason and logic says we have to be very careful believing the news coming out of Gaza.

It doesn't make sense when the reason for the bombing, in the first place, is to kill Hamas fighters. Yet none are reported killed in the casualty list.

All the havoc in and around the hospitals is the fault of Israel, yet there is a lot of shooting, shortage of basic necessities, injured people not getting the care they need, etc. How much of this is caused by Hamas doing all it can to create the chaos. e.g. shooting at Israeli soldiers in the area of the hospital, storing fuel and supplies sent by Israel, etc.

We know there is a large number of rockets, fired by Hamas, that have landed in heavily populated areas of Gaza. How much damage to buildings and people is the result of that?

Why are so many Palestinians not moving south as fast as they can?

[Roughneck]

Move south to what?

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Move south to what?

To being bombed in a different location. Variety is the spice of life after all

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Move south to what?

If you were a Palestinian in Gaza, faced with the choice of where to be, would it be in the north or south?

[Fuzz]

You have limited food, water and fuel. You have a family with young kids. There is nowhere for you to go in the south other than live on the streets. But you at least have a home in the north with a roof and supplies to survive. You might debate taking that risk.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

If you were a Palestinian in Gaza, faced with the choice of where to be, would it be in the north or south?

It would not matter.

They are bombing the North and South. Gunfire every where.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You have limited food, water and fuel. You have a family with young kids. There is nowhere for you to go in the south other than live on the streets. But you at least have a home in the north with a roof and supplies to survive. You might debate taking that risk.

You probably also have a general idea about what is going on in your neighbourhood that might assist in your family's survival. Things like:
Do Hamas members live in your building?
Which infrastructure around you may or may not be IDF targets.
In case of an IDF attack, where can you go to hide.
Who may or may not have food, water, etc. around you.

Being in a refugee camp far away from home might not be a safer alternative.

[PepsiFree]

Especially considering Israel also bombs refugee camps.

[jammies]

“They make a desert and call it peace.” - Tacitus

Peace plan:

1. Open a humanitarian corridor through Israel from Gaza to the West Bank.

2. Remove all Israeli settlers from the West bank with armed force. Prosecute any leaders who resist and also survive the expulsion.

3. Relocate all Gazans to the West Bank over the next 12-24 months. Filter out the Hamas fighters and have them tried by international tribunals. Give an amnesty to those who swear to renounce violence with the condition that recidivism is an automatic death sentence.

4. Israel annexes Gaza.

5. Israel recognizes the West Bank as fully independent Palestine. A constitutional convention for the new state is brokered under the aegis of a neutral party (EU? Japan? Brazil?).

6. Israel pays significant subsidies/reparations for the next 40 years to the Palestinian state. These reparations are for annexing Gaza, the illegal occupation of parts of the West Bank, and taking East Jerusalem.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by jammies

“They make a desert and call it peace.” - Tacitus

Peace plan:

1. Open a humanitarian corridor through Israel from Gaza to the West Bank.

2. Remove all Israeli settlers from the West bank with armed force. Prosecute any leaders who resist and also survive the expulsion.

3. Relocate all Gazans to the West Bank over the next 12-24 months. Filter out the Hamas fighters and have them tried by international tribunals. Give an amnesty to those who swear to renounce violence with the condition that recidivism is an automatic death sentence.

4. Israel annexes Gaza.

5. Israel recognizes the West Bank as fully independent Palestine. A constitutional convention for the new state is brokered under the aegis of a neutral party (EU? Japan? Brazil?).

6. Israel pays significant subsidies/reparations for the next 40 years to the Palestinian state. These reparations are for annexing Gaza, the illegal occupation of parts of the West Bank, and taking East Jerusalem.

I agree with everything except point 6.

That ship sailed when Hamas butchered pregnant mothers and the people danced in the streets celebrating it in Gaza.

I'm all for providing them with their own country, free from disrupting settlers, with plans for trade and economic benefits with Israel, but they should be on their own.

Maybe countries like Syria and Egypt could help out.

Oh right, likely never gonna happen.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

If you were a Palestinian in Gaza, faced with the choice of where to be, would it be in the north or south?

Given the choice, I would choose to be anywhere that Hamas isn't - whether that's in the North or the South.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Given the choice, I would choose to be anywhere that Hamas isn't - whether that's in the North or the South.

Yes, one wonders how many of Hamas just slipped into the crowd heading south, to avoid the war in the north.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by jammies

“They make a desert and call it peace.” - Tacitus

Peace plan:

1. Open a humanitarian corridor through Israel from Gaza to the West Bank.

2. Remove all Israeli settlers from the West bank with armed force. Prosecute any leaders who resist and also survive the expulsion.

3. Relocate all Gazans to the West Bank over the next 12-24 months. Filter out the Hamas fighters and have them tried by international tribunals. Give an amnesty to those who swear to renounce violence with the condition that recidivism is an automatic death sentence.

4. Israel annexes Gaza.

5. Israel recognizes the West Bank as fully independent Palestine. A constitutional convention for the new state is brokered under the aegis of a neutral party (EU? Japan? Brazil?).

6. Israel pays significant subsidies/reparations for the next 40 years to the Palestinian state. These reparations are for annexing Gaza, the illegal occupation of parts of the West Bank, and taking East Jerusalem.

Israel doesn't want Gaza and Gazan's don't want to live in the West Bank either, moving Gazans to the West Bank just radicalises the West Bank which is strategically far worse for Israel, the reason Israel has tolerated rocket attacks from Gaza is because there is little in the south, rocket attacks from the West Bank would kill thousands in Israel though, it is within reach of the heavily populated areas of Israel.

[afc wimbledon]

I think it is important to recognise there is nothing Israel can do short of leaving the land completely, and I mean the whole of Israel, that will appease Hamas, the PLO and the Palestinians, Gazans dont want the West Bank, their ancestors never lived there, they want Haifa and Nazareth back, which is the end of Israel, they want the Jews to go back to Europe and nothing but that.

The idea that if Israel gives the West Bank back then Palestinians will happily give up the rest of their land is absurd, a free West Bank Palestine will be grimly poor, run by corrupt fundy morons who will explain their failures as all being Israel's fault, meanwhile Israel will be a rich land of wealth just across the border, Palestinians won't look at the rest of Muslim run middle east and see that all Islamic countries are massively poorer than their non Islamic counterparts, they will just see it as the fault of the Jews, that if they could just get the rest of Palestine back they would live like Muslims used to in the 14th century when Islam was rich powerful and dominated the world, that resentment will always be a tool for extremists

I think Israel has a moral obligation to try and give Palestinians some kind of freedom, a country of sorts, I think that will reduce to a degree the amount of violence it will face but it will never end it.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think it is important to recognise there is nothing Israel can do short of leaving the land completely, and I mean the whole of Israel, that will appease Hamas, the PLO and the Palestinians, Gazans dont want the West Bank, their ancestors never lived there, they want Haifa and Nazareth back, which is the end of Israel, they want the Jews to go back to Europe and nothing but that.

The idea that if Israel gives the West Bank back then Palestinians will happily give up the rest of their land is absurd, a free West Bank Palestine will be grimly poor, run by corrupt fundy morons who will explain their failures as all being Israel's fault, meanwhile Israel will be a rich land of wealth just across the border, Palestinians won't look at the rest of Muslim run middle east and see that all Islamic countries are massively poorer than their non Islamic counterparts, they will just see it as the fault of the Jews, that if they could just get the rest of Palestine back they would live like Muslims used to in the 14th century when Islam was rich powerful and dominated the world, that resentment will always be a tool for extremists

I think Israel has a moral obligation to try and give Palestinians some kind of freedom, a country of sorts, I think that will reduce to a degree the amount of violence it will face but it will never end it.

The original plan of neighbouring Arab states wasn't even to create Palestinian state. The plan was for Jordan to take most of Israel to the Mediterranean, Egypt to take southern Israel, and Syria to take northern Israel, giving them another corridor to the sea. In that scenario, Israel was seen as David, and the Arab states as Goliath. The Arab countries tried to flip the script and reverse the underdog image by suggesting Palestinians were a separate nation deserving of their own state. They made them pawns. It was actually a really smart play in order to gain more sympathy in other parts of the world, but even if Israel ceased to exist, I don't think it would take long until the original plan was implemented.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Bagor

The antisemitic WHO, UNFPA and UNICEF release a joint statement calling for the world to intervene.


https://www.emro.who.int/media/news/...e-in-gaza.html

International law and international institutions have, over the last number of years been more regularly attacked by those aligned to the new term, "rules-based order", that opendoor, I believe, also recently referenced in one of his posts. This new rules-based order is simply a system outside of international law that defends whatever the US judges is in its and its allies' interests. Though international law was created by the west, for the west, it appears that the Global South has been able to develop and grow within its rules and so, a new system needed to be defined.

A neat study from Cambridge University Press that explores this new "rules-based order".

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...E16988FD18BAF0

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by jammies

“They make a desert and call it peace.” - Tacitus

Peace plan:

1. Open a humanitarian corridor through Israel from Gaza to the West Bank.

2. Remove all Israeli settlers from the West bank with armed force. Prosecute any leaders who resist and also survive the expulsion.

3. Relocate all Gazans to the West Bank over the next 12-24 months. Filter out the Hamas fighters and have them tried by international tribunals. Give an amnesty to those who swear to renounce violence with the condition that recidivism is an automatic death sentence.

4. Israel annexes Gaza.

5. Israel recognizes the West Bank as fully independent Palestine. A constitutional convention for the new state is brokered under the aegis of a neutral party (EU? Japan? Brazil?).

6. Israel pays significant subsidies/reparations for the next 40 years to the Palestinian state. These reparations are for annexing Gaza, the illegal occupation of parts of the West Bank, and taking East Jerusalem.

7. New free Palestine elects Hamas 2.0 on their very first elections. We have seen this movie before. That being said, I appreciate trying to provide some way forward instead of just arguing with the other side.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by jammies

“They make a desert and call it peace.” - Tacitus

Peace plan:

1. Open a humanitarian corridor through Israel from Gaza to the West Bank.

2. Remove all Israeli settlers from the West bank with armed force. Prosecute any leaders who resist and also survive the expulsion.

3. Relocate all Gazans to the West Bank over the next 12-24 months. Filter out the Hamas fighters and have them tried by international tribunals. Give an amnesty to those who swear to renounce violence with the condition that recidivism is an automatic death sentence.

4. Israel annexes Gaza.

5. Israel recognizes the West Bank as fully independent Palestine. A constitutional convention for the new state is brokered under the aegis of a neutral party (EU? Japan? Brazil?).

6. Israel pays significant subsidies/reparations for the next 40 years to the Palestinian state. These reparations are for annexing Gaza, the illegal occupation of parts of the West Bank, and taking East Jerusalem.

I think Gaza becoming part of Egypt (along with huge humanitarian cash transfer/Marshall plan style redevelopment) is more likely to lead to lasting peace than this plan.

If you go this way I think it's very likely the main thing you accomplish is militarizing the west bank.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Or maybe, and please follow along closely, they aren't antisemitic.

Hamas actions are so indefensible, that instead of arguing for anything related to the war (which is, as you can see above, the topic of the thread), you have to resort to arguing that not everyone who asks for bombing to stop is antisemitic. That's actually true. Most of them are just clueless, rather than antisemitic. WHO and UN have proved their incompetence long before this war.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I think Gaza becoming part of Egypt (along with huge humanitarian cash transfer/Marshall plan style redevelopment) is more likely to lead to lasting peace than this plan.

If you go this way I think it's very likely the main thing you accomplish is militarizing the west bank.

Israel did offer Gaza to Egypt some decades back, and Egypt declined. Nobody wants to deal with this hell hole.