2023/24 No Hope Flames Rumours & Speculation Thread

[dirk diggler]

We need something like a Dallas Star draft to really right this pathetic ship. the year they drafted Heiskinen, Robertson and Oettinger in one draft. Awesome.

[transplant99]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1717963313823584472

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Not if Wolf turns into an elite goalie. They would be able to make it sooner especially if they can land some franchise level players in the draft the next couple of years.

That's a big if, though.

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Because the last one did. The Gaudreau/Monahan led Flames were in the playoffs and won a round not long after the official rebuild was declared.
It's a young mans league now. You get elite young talent and they can turn the ship quickly. I'm not saying the project is complete that quickly, but you start seeing signs of progress.

The doom and gloom about 10 years of being bad is just fear mongering.
Not every team is Edmonton.

Yes, that is true. However, you cannot count today on a franchise player being found in the 4th round. Further, pointing to the last rebuild/retool as a measure of success is not a good justification. Many posters around here were ready to tear the thing down with Gaudreau and Tkachuk on the roster. A full rebuild as many are advocating is going to be a decade of missing the playoffs, unless they get really lucky.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I agree with that, it's going to take a lot longer than 3-4 years to do it properly.

I just think doing it properly is off the table with this ownership group, so I guess the next best thing is to do it half-assed again. Anything else is better than this.

A half-assed rebuild gave us Monahan and Tkachuk. Give me that over this current garbage

[Enoch Root]

Also, Gaudreau was drafted in 2011, before the rebuild even started.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by transplant99

https://twitter.com/user/status/1717963313823584472

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Also, Gaudreau was drafted in 2011, before the rebuild even started.

Well it is not like you are null and void of any prospects the day you start a rebuild. Flames currently probably have 7-8 legitimate NHL prospects or players who are under the age of 23 in the organization. Those guys will still be in the organization and contributing to a rebuild even if the Flames declare they are going to do a rebuild.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Well it is not like you are null and void of any prospects the day you start a rebuild. Flames currently probably have 7-8 legitimate NHL prospects or players who are under the age of 23 in the organization. Those guys will still be in the organization and contributing to a rebuild even if the Flames declare they are going to do a rebuild.

Sure. But the conversation started with a claim that a rebuild could be 3-4 years, like the last one. And that it is possible to hit big in later rounds, thus shortening the rebuild.

1) the last one WASN'T 3-4 years (see: discussion on impatience), and
2) the best player from that rebuild - the guy they built the team around - was drafted well before the rebuild started. Most players take several years before they are impact players in the NHL. And most of the players that are part of the rebuild are drafted AFTER the first year of it (it takes YEARS of drafting to acquire enough good players).

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by NegativeSpace

Yes, that is true. However, you cannot count today on a franchise player being found in the 4th round. Further, pointing to the last rebuild/retool as a measure of success is not a good justification. Many posters around here were ready to tear the thing down with Gaudreau and Tkachuk on the roster. A full rebuild as many are advocating is going to be a decade of missing the playoffs, unless they get really lucky.

Bottom line is elite players are required to win championships. I am not seeing any other way of accumulating elite players other than through having some attempts at very high draft picks. High draft picks yielded results for the Flames in the last build. Seems reasonable to think it could happen again.
I am open to a better solution than rebuilding, if its out there. Haven't heard anyone mention one yet. Not the Flames, nor anyone on this board.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Bottom line is elite players are required to win championships. I am not seeing any other way of accumulating elite players other than through having some attempts at very high draft picks. High draft picks yielded results for the Flames in the last build. Seems reasonable to think it could happen again.
I am open to a better solution than rebuilding, if its out there. Haven't heard anyone mention one yet. Not the Flames, nor anyone on this board.

No one is saying don't rebuild, they are simply challenging the assertion that it can be done in 3-4 years. It can't.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No one is saying don't rebuild, they are simply challenging the assertion that it can be done in 3-4 years. It can't.

I don't think anyone is expecting a cup in 3-4 years. Most people just want to support a project that's on an upward trajectory. There will be pain along the way but hopefully some excitement too. I think most people just want the team to go in the right direction, it feels like they are doing the opposite.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Sure. But the conversation started with a claim that a rebuild could be 3-4 years, like the last one. And that it is possible to hit big in later rounds, thus shortening the rebuild.

1) the last one WASN'T 3-4 years (see: discussion on impatience), and
2) the best player from that rebuild - the guy they built the team around - was drafted well before the rebuild started. Most players take several years before they are impact players in the NHL. And most of the players that are part of the rebuild are drafted AFTER the first year of it (it takes YEARS of drafting to acquire enough good players).

The best player from the rebuild was and will always be Tkachuk. The guy they built it around was Johnny. I think the discussion about 7-9 years is largely just the last gasps of folks who always had questions about a rebuild and used to talk about the importance of playoff revenue. Playoff revenue is long gone and soon regular season box office revenue will also diminish. Thankfully, likely for those economic reasons and not for hockey reasons the rebuild should commence relatively soon. Time will tell how long it will take but if the Flames are 8-10 points out of the playoffs by American thanksgiving (8 games in they are 2 points out with the 8th place team having a game in hand) the writing should be on the wall for everyone. Even if they are in the hunt based on their soft schedule to start the year the murderers row from November 24th through December 18th should ensure a rebuild. Hope they don’t sign anyone longterm before then.

[Bonded]

Yeah, the team would probably be in a better spot with Tkachuk and no Gaudreau than both lol

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Toronto is really close imo. I wouldn't put it past Tre and Conroy to make a deadline deal to help Tre get the leafs over the finish line.

Yes though I think Toronto is more similar to big market American teams that small market Canadian teams. They have some of the same advantages of being a desirable location.
The fact they haven't won the cup, or come even close, is entirely their fault.
But they've shown they can both re-sign elite players and attract some of the best free agents.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Bottom line is elite players are required to win championships. I am not seeing any other way of accumulating elite players other than through having some attempts at very high draft picks. High draft picks yielded results for the Flames in the last build. Seems reasonable to think it could happen again.
I am open to a better solution than rebuilding, if its out there. Haven't heard anyone mention one yet. Not the Flames, nor anyone on this board.

Only one really - Tkachuk. Monahan was a pretty good one but for various reasons flamed out early. Bennett wasn't successful here, and is still a middle six guy at best - not elite.

The Flames had one high draft pick become an elite player in recent years. The Flames success in getting elite players, when it has come, usually is from striking gold with a Newy in the 2nd, an undrafted Gio, or late pick swings on undersized guys like Gaudreau or Fleury or Loob.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by transplant99

https://twitter.com/user/status/1717963313823584472

He's not throwing sticks though...

[chedder]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Only one really - Tkachuk. Monahan was a pretty good one but for various reasons flamed out early. Bennett wasn't successful here, and is still a middle six guy at best - not elite.



The Flames had one high draft pick become an elite player in recent years. The Flames success in getting elite players, when it has come, usually is from striking gold with a Newy in the 2nd, an undrafted Gio, or late pick swings on undersized guys like Gaudreau or Fleury or Loob.

Monahan was every bit as good a pick as Tkachuk. In his first 6 seasons as a Flame he scored 363 points to Tkachuk's 382. Then Monahan scored 99 more in his last 3 seasons battling injuries (and Tkachuk left). All that while playing a more difficult and important position.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Only one really - Tkachuk. Monahan was a pretty good one but for various reasons flamed out early. Bennett wasn't successful here, and is still a middle six guy at best - not elite.

The Flames had one high draft pick become an elite player in recent years. The Flames success in getting elite players, when it has come, usually is from striking gold with a Newy in the 2nd, an undrafted Gio, or late pick swings on undersized guys like Gaudreau or Fleury or Loob.

What a strategy. Has yielded them the corresponding level of playoff success over the years.

Not sure if you're trying to say the Flames don't need high picks to get great players? High draft picks are simply the best way to get the best players, I don't really see how that's even an argument.

2/3 of the top picks in that era were franchise changing picks in Monahan and Tkachuk, Monahan's subsequent injury problems don't make him a bad pick. The fact that you don't hit on all of them (Bennett) doesn't disprove the value of those picks.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Igottago

What a strategy. Has yielded them the corresponding level of playoff success over the years.

Not sure if you're trying to say the Flames don't need high picks to get great players? High draft picks are simply the best way to get the best players, I don't really see how that's even an argument.

2/3 of the top picks in that era were franchise changing picks in Monahan and Tkachuk, Monahan's subsequent injury problems don't make him a bad pick. The fact that you don't hit on all of them (Bennett) doesn't disprove the value of those picks.

What I'm saying is that the Flames have drafted badly up high, whenever they've had a chance. And frankly, Tkachuk dropped into their lap. It should have been Juloevi based on rankings.