2023/24 No Hope Flames Rumours & Speculation Thread

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I'm fine with a re-build. I'd like them to do that. And I agree it will only happen if they have no other choice.

I'm only pushing back on the notion that it's a 3-4 year thing. Because it ain't. So fans asking for a re-build because "we'll be ready to compete in 2027" are being very naiive.

Chicago was about the quickest from 'official rebuild' to winning a cup. They sure sucked for a long time before that though. Bad ownership was a theme throughout their terrible years...

[GullFoss]

The rebuild was maybe one player short. Given all the bad luck around Fox, Monahan, Bennett, Valimaki...I thought the rebuild was pretty decent. Bad luck derailed the cycle to some extent. And to some extent it was bad asset management. And to some extent it was poor coaching hires. And to some extent, the team blew up while it was at its best.

The big mistake was not knowing when to rebuild and start the cycle anew. Signing two 29/30 year old "franchise" players to 8 year contracts instead of realizing it was over was the real mistake. Bennett was gone. Johnny was gone. Monahan was gone. Tkachuk was gone. Markstrom was playing poorly. Why shouldn't the team have rebuilt at that point?

And even if you thought Huby and Kadri were good replacements for Johnny and Tkachuk and wanted a couple more kicks at the can under this current cycle...fine give it a season. And if you thought maybe they just had a bad season...fine give it part of a second season. Want to give it another 15 games? Fine.

But by game 30-40 of this season, there's zero excuses. They will need to sell Lindholm and Hanifin. They need to try and get value for tanev. Accelerate the rebuild. At the end of the day...what they get for Iginla, Regehr, Jaybo, Hanifin, Lindholm will pale in comparison to what top-5 draft picks will be. So just get what you can and start sucking harder to get those picks.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I agree with that, it's going to take a lot longer than 3-4 years to do it properly.

I just think doing it properly is off the table with this ownership group, so I guess the next best thing is to do it half-assed again. Anything else is better than this.

Maybe this is a bit naive but, maybe Conroy and Iggy can bend the ear of Edwards.

That’s assuming Conroy and Iggy think we should rebuild.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

I think you're misunderstanding Igottago a bit. Especially this line: "I'm not saying the project is complete that quickly, but you start seeing signs of progress."

If I'm reading him right, he means that in 3 to 4 years, they'll have some players to be excited about, similar to the 2015 Flames team that surprised and made the playoffs. The key is not to then go all in on players like Hamonic and think the rebuild is done. Keep building through the draft until you have a real contender.

To reiterate, in 3 or 4 years there will be something to be hopeful about. Not a completed project, but also it will be fun to be a fan again. It won't be 7-9 years of completely bleak expectations. It will be 7-9 years before this team could be an actual threat to win a cup, but that is better than the current plan where they're never going to be a cup contender.

Exactly what I was saying. Thanks for jumping in.

The Flames didn't complete their build successfully but it gave us some great years of hopeful hockey along the way, and excellent young players to get behind. The next one might do better if they make some better decisions along the way.

Rebuilds aren't just some long drawn out period of pure depression.
Not rebuilding because you're afraid of the process is just a loser mentality IMO.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I agree with that, it's going to take a lot longer than 3-4 years to do it properly.

I just think doing it properly is off the table with this ownership group, so I guess the next best thing is to do it half-assed again. Anything else is better than this.

Well the contracts they've signed with some players may force it to be a longer process.
They have authored their own demise, but may have also forced the very thing they need to do.
At least that's the best I can come with up.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

The rebuild was maybe one player short. Given all the bad luck around Fox, Monahan, Bennett, Valimaki...I thought the rebuild was pretty decent.

Which is perhaps why Canadian teams haven't won a cup in so long.
For a re-build to work, you need to have a lot of things go your way. When you draft a Norris trophy winning dmen in the third round, that's one of those things. At least it should have been.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Well the contracts they've signed with some players may force it to be a longer process.
They have authored their own demise, but may have also forced the very thing they need to do.
At least that's the best I can come with up.

My only hope is that Huberdeau turns it around with some fast players.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Exactly what I was saying. Thanks for jumping in.

The Flames didn't complete their build successfully but it gave us some great years of hopeful hockey along the way, and excellent young players to get behind. The next one might do better if they make some better decisions along the way.

Rebuilds aren't just some long drawn out period of pure depression.
Not rebuilding because you're afraid of the process is just a loser mentality IMO.

Keep in mind my original reply was not to you, it was to someone saying you could "compete for a playoff spot in 3 years." Which I suppose could happen but that's also the type of thing that isn't actually good for a proper re-build.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Which is perhaps why Canadian teams haven't won a cup in so long.
For a re-build to work, you need to have a lot of things go your way. When you draft a Norris trophy winning dmen in the third round, that's one of those things. At least it should have been.

Bennett was the big miss imo. If the Oilers take him over Draisaitl then I think the Flames would have made more noise. Flames got a #2 and #3 center with their highest picks.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Keep in mind my original reply was not to you, it was to someone saying you could "compete for a playoff spot in 3 years." Which I suppose could happen but that's also the type of thing that isn't actually good for a proper re-build.

I think we are pretty much on the same page, you're just setting expectations. All I'm saying is rebuilds don't have to be pure torture for years and could go better than expected. I would feel much more optimism having drafted a few top 5 picks than with what the Flames are doing now.

I imagine Chicago fans are loving life right now even though they are nowhere near contending yet.

[bdubbs]

We need a rebuild badly. I'd rather suffer for 3-7 years and have hope than suffer in mediocrity forever.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

Yup scorched earth rebuilds looking at minimum 6-8 year turn around. Maybe sniffing playoffs before that, but probably minimum 6-8 years to 'peak'

This team has no chance of competing in the next 5-6 years anyway so might as well try to build something that can. The likelihood that Kadri finds former glory in his mid 30’s seems low.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

So we are calling that a successful re-build? Do we not agree that one of the issues was a lack of patience leading to bad signings and deals like the Hamonic one?

Show me examples of turning the ship quickly.

I'm pro re-build but this notion that it can be done in 3-4 years is silly, made more hilarious by the fact that I thought there was agreement that the last re-build failed because they didn't give it enough time.

So let's just make the same mistake again?

They made the playoffs the first time without moving any future pieces and in fact traded current pieces for future pieces that year. The mistake was when they thought it was complete. But I think the point was that it is not a guarantee that you are out of the playoffs for 7-9 years if you start a rebuild because the Flames were not. Once they finally mercifully started a rebuild in 2013 it took 3 years to make the playoffs after they started selling off pieces.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Because the last one did. The Gaudreau/Monahan led Flames were in the playoffs and won a round not long after the official rebuild was declared.
It's a young mans league now. You get elite young talent and they can turn the ship quickly. I'm not saying the project is complete that quickly, but you start seeing signs of progress.

The doom and gloom about 10 years of being bad is just fear mongering.
Not every team is Edmonton.

That is precisely what went wrong with that rebuild - they tried to lift the nose WAY before the end of the runway.

Had they been more patient, and let the rebuild be 6-8 years, we'd be in a better place now

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

They made the playoffs the first time without moving any future pieces and in fact traded current pieces for future pieces that year. The mistake was when they thought it was complete. But I think the point was that it is not a guarantee that you are out of the playoffs for 7-9 years if you start a rebuild because the Flames were not. Once they finally mercifully started a rebuild in 2013 it took 3 years to make the playoffs after they started selling off pieces.

They went on a heater, and were VERY fortunate, all year long. The poster claimed that the rebuild ended in 3 years. It did not. They just mistakenly believed that it did.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Which is perhaps why Canadian teams haven't won a cup in so long.
For a re-build to work, you need to have a lot of things go your way. When you draft a Norris trophy winning dmen in the third round, that's one of those things. At least it should have been.

Toronto is really close imo. I wouldn't put it past Tre and Conroy to make a deadline deal to help Tre get the leafs over the finish line.

[dustygoon]

Start of rebuild to cup contender takes long obviously.

But start of rebuild to watching fun hockey and having hope? Much shorter.

Traded Iginla in 2013. Ran with Ramo/reto bera in net the next year which was Monahan's first year. 2014/2015 was a good year (too good....probably hurt us!). 2016/2017 we had Tkachuk and things were so fun to watch.

Getting lucky with a 4th rounder obviously helped.

[ComixZone]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1717952189321416999

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Which is perhaps why Canadian teams haven't won a cup in so long.
For a re-build to work, you need to have a lot of things go your way. When you draft a Norris trophy winning dmen in the third round, that's one of those things. At least it should have been.

Fox told everyone he was going to eventually sign with the Rangers.

That's why he fell to t e third round.

Calgary picked him anyway because they saw value there, and they were correct.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

That is precisely what went wrong with that rebuild - they tried to lift the nose WAY before the end of the runway.

Had they been more patient, and let the rebuild be 6-8 years, we'd be in a better place now

Sure, no argument with that.
But that's no reason not to go again. To me at least trying to build something up that way is far more preferable than whatever the hell they are thinking now.