2023/24 No Hope Flames Rumours & Speculation Thread

[Ashasx]

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[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Iniggywetrust

I don’t think this team needs to rebuild, nor do I think this management will let that happen. Rebuilds don’t always work, and you end up just being bad for years. Especially if you don’t hit a Crosby, Ovechkin, Mcdavid draft year.

We have some good pieces but the mix is off. If we can move out our UFAs for some good young pieces, we may be able to do a quicker retool, ala NYR.

Also, I hated the Kadri signing from day one and even I thought we might get more than half a good season.

Nobody is suggesting rebuilds always work, but doing whatever the Flames have been doing for the last 20 years, being impatient, has resulted in one of the least successful franchises in the league over that period.

The Rangers were able to re-tool on the fly because they play out of New York and a top 2 defenceman in the league refused to sign an ELC with the team that drafted him and would only sign with the Rangers. But even they picked 1st overall recently.

The Flames don't have those kind of luxuries. We cannot operate like the Rangers.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by butterfly

I hope they do. Who cares about any Eastern team? The probability of the Flames winning will have nothing to do with whether or not the Canadiens hit on that pick. The ship sailed the day Treliving sent the pick and Monahan over there.

Think about the inverse, if the pick busts, or they forfeit it due to an Arizona-style combine violation, is that as good as it gets?

Don't you hate Montreal? And Toronto? I know I do.

[mikephoen]

Best bet for a contender in this city is to get the new arena cancelled asap and have Edwards move the team next summer. Then build a new stadium anyway and either get an expansion team, or get the Coyotes to move here when the stadium is done. Could have a cup contender in 5 or 6 years.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Far more likely it is Years 7-9.
I don't know why people think a re-build will only take a few years.

Because the last one did. The Gaudreau/Monahan led Flames were in the playoffs and won a round not long after the official rebuild was declared.
It's a young mans league now. You get elite young talent and they can turn the ship quickly. I'm not saying the project is complete that quickly, but you start seeing signs of progress.

The doom and gloom about 10 years of being bad is just fear mongering.
Not every team is Edmonton.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Don't you hate Montreal? And Toronto? I know I do.

No more than Columbus and Florida which I know a lot of people also do. The only teams I don't like are Vancouver and Edmonton. Them and the rest of the Pacific teams are all that stand between the Flames making the conference finals in any year.

[Ashes]

We've been saying and hearing for the last few years that this team won't willing rebuild and this past summer we even got that zinger from Bean that the word "isn't allowed to be used". We've also heard from guys like Steinberg that the only way this team will consider making re-tool/rebuild moves is if the team drags us kicking and screaming into that territory at the bottom end of the league.. well, unless something miraculous happens with this nothing-burger of a roster and coaching staff.. I think we might be at that point.

This team will never tear it down completely and start over because that would require a level of intellectual honesty and foresight that Edwards clearly doesn't have. The only way we build a strong team again is through the draft, so we need as many bullets as possible and we need a lot of luck along the way. Call it a "reset" or whatever they need to say to save face because that's oh so important.

For the love of god just don't re-sign Hanifin and Lindholm. Let this team roll and we should be picking top 10 in the summer, hold onto those guys until the last minute so that we can drive up their value and they can help drag us down, and then trade those 2 at the deadline at the very least and try to pick up 2 more 1st's+, I don't know what else there is to hope for this season. Bunch of mercenaries leading this team into a bleak future and something needs to change. Get some picks for the draft. Give us at least ONE day to look forward to (draft 2024).

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Because the last one did. The Gaudreau/Monahan led Flames were in the playoffs and won a round not long after the official rebuild was declared.
It's a young mans league now. You get elite young talent and they can turn the ship quickly. I'm not saying the project is complete that quickly, but you start seeing signs of progress.

The doom and gloom about 10 years of being bad is just fear mongering.
Not every team is Edmonton.

Great points. Besides, if it takes 10 years, all the more reason to start now. Hell, all the more reason to start two summer's ago. Then it would only be 8 more years.

Re builds are painful, but at least they are interesting. Watching an aging team flounder is both painful and boring.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Because the last one did. The Gaudreau/Monahan led Flames were in the playoffs and won a round not long after the official rebuild was declared.
It's a young mans league now. You get elite young talent and they can turn the ship quickly.

The doom and gloom about 10 years of being bad is just fear mongering.
Not every team is Edmonton.

Many people here will tell you the Flames didn’t rebuild long enough.

The idea seems to be rebuild long enough where the system is stacked with young talent and can compete, consistently, for a decade +. What happened with that rebuild was the Flames were in one year, out the next and so on. So, it depends on what you define as a ‘rebuild’ if we’re going to have that discussion.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Because the last one did. The Gaudreau/Monahan led Flames were in the playoffs and won a round not long after the official rebuild was declared.
It's a young mans league now. You get elite young talent and they can turn the ship quickly. I'm not saying the project is complete that quickly, but you start seeing signs of progress.

The doom and gloom about 10 years of being bad is just fear mongering.
Not every team is Edmonton.

So we are calling that a successful re-build? Do we not agree that one of the issues was a lack of patience leading to bad signings and deals like the Hamonic one?

Show me examples of turning the ship quickly.

I'm pro re-build but this notion that it can be done in 3-4 years is silly, made more hilarious by the fact that I thought there was agreement that the last re-build failed because they didn't give it enough time.

So let's just make the same mistake again?

[CroCop]

I would have to assume to Flames have standing contract offers to Lindholm and Hanafin. Could you imagine the tension it would create if these were suddenly pulled off the table.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

So we are calling that a successful re-build? Do we not agree that one of the issues was a lack of patience leading to bad signings and deals like the Hamonic one?

Show me examples of turning the ship quickly.

I'm pro re-build but this notion that it can be done in 3-4 years is silly, made more hilarious by the fact that I thought there was agreement that the last re-build failed because they didn't give it enough time.

So let's just make the same mistake again?

Ok, so what's your suggestion? Keep doing what they're doing now? Working out great so far. Clearly there is zero appetite from ownership to initiate a proper rebuild and stick to it. They'll have to be dragged into it kicking and screaming, and then try to cut corners first chance they get. That's just the reality we all have to live with while Murray Edwards is still running the ship.

News flash for anyone who's afraid of becoming Buffalo/Edmonton/Arizona wandering the desert for 10+ years: we're already there. It's happening right now.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Ok, so what's your suggestion? Keep doing what they're doing now? Working out great so far. Clearly there is zero appetite from ownership to initiate a proper rebuild and stick to it. They'll have to be dragged into it kicking and screaming, and then try to cut corners first chance they get.

News flash for anyone who's afraid of becoming Buffalo/Edmonton/Arizona wandering the desert for 10+ years: we're already there. It's happening right now.

You're totally right this is already year 2 in the rebuild, it's happening. Time for change.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

So we are calling that a successful re-build? Do we not agree that one of the issues was a lack of patience leading to bad signings and deals like the Hamonic one?

Show me examples of turning the ship quickly.

I'm pro re-build but this notion that it can be done in 3-4 years is silly, made more hilarious by the fact that I thought there was agreement that the last re-build failed because they didn't give it enough time.

So let's just make the same mistake again?

I think you're misunderstanding Igottago a bit. Especially this line: "I'm not saying the project is complete that quickly, but you start seeing signs of progress."

If I'm reading him right, he means that in 3 to 4 years, they'll have some players to be excited about, similar to the 2015 Flames team that surprised and made the playoffs. The key is not to then go all in on players like Hamonic and think the rebuild is done. Keep building through the draft until you have a real contender.

To reiterate, in 3 or 4 years there will be something to be hopeful about. Not a completed project, but also it will be fun to be a fan again. It won't be 7-9 years of completely bleak expectations. It will be 7-9 years before this team could be an actual threat to win a cup, but that is better than the current plan where they're never going to be a cup contender.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Ok, so what's your suggestion? Keep doing what they're doing now? Working out great so far. Clearly there is zero appetite from ownership to initiate a proper rebuild and stick to it. They'll have to be dragged into it kicking and screaming, and then try to cut corners first chance they get.

News flash for anyone who's afraid of becoming Buffalo/Edmonton/Arizona wandering the desert for 10+ years: we're already there. It's happening right now.

He says he’s pro-rebuild. Did you miss that?

Rebuilding isn’t the problem but I think the point is the organization and the fans should be prepared for 6-9 years of no playoffs. If we get lucky, maybe it 4 or 5 but that would be the best you could hope for.

The other thing to add to this conversation is how fickle player development can be. You can simply miss on a draft pick, all teams deal with this. A young player could have their career derailed by personal issues (Emil Piorier and over Kylington) or injury/loss of confidence (Valimaki).

You need a lot to go right for a rebuild to be less than 6-7 years, I’d say.

You probably also need stability/confidence at the management level. If Conroy’s fired half way through that can derail things.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by CroCop

I would have to assume to Flames have standing contract offers to Lindholm and Hanafin. Could you imagine the tension it would create if these were suddenly pulled off the table.

Could it really be any worse than it is now lol. Hanifin and Lindholm might have pulled their counter offers as well

[Ashasx]

I really don't think the best you can hope for is playoffs by year 4/5. This team made the playoffs in in year 2 of the rebuild. The problem is that instead of trying to progress the rebuild naturally, management went out and rushed it and proclaimed the rebuild as finished.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Ok, so what's your suggestion? Keep doing what they're doing now? Working out great so far. Clearly there is zero appetite from ownership to initiate a proper rebuild and stick to it. They'll have to be dragged into it kicking and screaming, and then try to cut corners first chance they get. That's just the reality we all have to live with while Murray Edwards is still running the ship.

News flash for anyone who's afraid of becoming Buffalo/Edmonton/Arizona wandering the desert for 10+ years: we're already there. It's happening right now.

I'm fine with a re-build. I'd like them to do that. And I agree it will only happen if they have no other choice.

I'm only pushing back on the notion that it's a 3-4 year thing. Because it ain't. So fans asking for a re-build because "we'll be ready to compete in 2027" are being very naiive.

[CroCop]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Could it really be any worse than it is now lol. Hanifin and Lindholm might have pulled their counter offers as well

I think it would be cool if they did.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I'm fine with a re-build. I'd like them to do that. And I agree it will only happen if they have no other choice.

I'm only pushing back on the notion that it's a 3-4 year thing. Because it ain't. So fans asking for a re-build because "we'll be ready to compete in 2027" are being very naiive.

I agree with that, it's going to take a lot longer than 3-4 years to do it properly.

I just think doing it properly is off the table with this ownership group, so I guess the next best thing is to do it half-assed again. Anything else is better than this.