Israel declares war on Hamas

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

A territory is launching thousands of rocket attacks on your communities for years. You have the means to interdict cargo shipments into the territory. What do you do?

That same territory launches a mass attack over the border, overrunning entire towns and deliberately slaughtering hundreds of civilians. The leaders vow they will wipe you out. Then they hide among civilians. What do you do?

You probably start by asking yourself what precipitated the launch of rockets into your land. If the answer is it's because you stole the land based on some passages in a 2000 year-old book (that you wrote) that says the land is yours you may now understand why you find yourself in such a complicated position.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I don't mean to heap all blame on Israel, it's just that it should be pretty obvious what Hamas did was wrong and is hideous. Do I need to hammer on about that? #### Hamas. But understanding psychologically what led them to this is more interesting to me. That is, of course, where it gets far more complicated and muddy.

The same could be said about Israel. They haven't adapted to their current state because this is how they wanted it to be.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I have nothing to back this up, but it wouldn't surprise me if asking palestinians to evacuate south is more sinister than a ground assault. Maybe larger scale bombing or even the use of a tactical nuke.

They have no need to nuke anyone. All the reports show that Hamas is taking massive casualties and Israel is moving forward with only minor casualties. The status quo is working fine for Israel, and there's no need to escalate.

Israel has been warning the Gazan civilians the whole way through. It's why the Gazan civilian casualties are in the hundreds so far, and not tens of thousands, despite hundreds of buildings being knocked down.

Israel is likely going to start campaign to destroy Hamas' tunnel network and a wider ground invasion next. They are giving notice to civilians of which areas they'll strike first.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Sliver

You probably start by asking yourself what precipitated the launch of rockets into your land. If the answer is it's because you stole the land based on some passages in a 2000 year-old book (that you wrote) that says the land is yours you may now understand why you find yourself in such a complicated position.

Is that what you honestly think precipitated the attack on Oct.7?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Is that what you honestly think precipitated the attack on Oct.7?

Of course it is. There's an entire history and context to what happened that started before last weekend.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Pointman

People are bringing Egypt because of the following. Palestinians talk about Israelies blockading Gaza because they are racists, treat Palestinians like dirt, have different religion, colonization mindset, are occupiers and so on. But none of it applies to Egypt, yet Egypt blockades Gaza too. Something doesn't add up.

My understanding is the arab world loathes Palestinians, but they are merely a pawn in their goal to have the international community turn on Israel and brings them further to the goal of wiping Israel off the map.

Egyptians, Jordanians, Lebanese, Iranians, Iraqis, etc. they do not care one bit for Palestinians. In fact, seeing more dead Palestinian civilians on TV helps their goals more than anything.

Why doesn't it add up? because there is this collective superficial belief in NA that only white people are racist. And we see on TV countries like Egypt drone on against the harm being done to Palestinians while on the ground, they do nothing for actual Palestinians.

Strategically, there is also likely a belief that by accepting refugees/civilians, you may inadvertently accept Hamas fighters who continue their assaults' into Israel from your country. Israel has shown in the past (and present) they aren't afraid to lob some howitzer shells into Lebanon to put out rocket attacks.

I would 100% agree with your previous comment. Being born Palestinian is currently the most likely the unluckiest card you could draw in life.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

They have no need to nuke anyone. All the reports show that Hamas is taking massive casualties and Israel is moving forward with only minor casualties. The status quo is working fine for Israel, and there's no need to escalate.

Israel has been warning the Gazan civilians the whole way through. It's why the Gazan civilian casualties are in the hundreds so far, and not tens of thousands, despite hundreds of buildings being knocked down.

Israel is likely going to start campaign to destroy Hamas' tunnel network and a wider ground invasion next. They are giving notice to civilians of which areas they'll strike first.

I believe it’s well over a thousand dead, with hundreds of children alone, while the injured have topped 6000.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The same could be said about Israel. They haven't adapted to their current state because this is how they wanted it to be.

I guess I just find that easier to understand. They think they are entitled to the land(many reasons I don't agree with), so they take it.

[PsYcNeT]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712847327466013019

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Sliver

You probably start by asking yourself what precipitated the launch of rockets into your land. If the answer is it's because you stole the land based on some passages in a 2000 year-old book (that you wrote) that says the land is yours you may now understand why you find yourself in such a complicated position.

They established a state based on UN resolution and the decision of owner of the lands, that is British Empire. Palestinians never owned the lands to begin with, making "stealing" impossible.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

We are working on it. Another couple pages and we should have a solution. I'm still banking on Kushner sorting it out, though. He had such confidence.

62 more pages to go

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Of course it is. There's an entire history and context to what happened that started before last weekend.

Okay, since you mentioned context...modern Israel wasn't founded because of religious beliefs. I'm sure that was part of it for some, but Jews were looking for a homeland somewhere in the world where they could form their own state and protect themselves, because throughout their entire history they were persecuted wherever they went. Crimea was also considered at some point and possibly other areas. Your take seems pretty simplistic especially in light of looking for context.

At some point, everyone has to get over how we got here and try to make the best of it. In this particular region, Jews can lay claim to the area and so can many other groups including Palestinians. I hope you're not claiming that because the descendants of modern Canadians stole the land and tried to ethnically cleanse them and them placed them in quasi-apartheid conditions, that you'd be okay if they murdered civilians.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

A territory is launching thousands of rocket attacks on your communities for years. You have the means to interdict cargo shipments into the territory. What do you do?

That same territory launches a mass attack over the border, overrunning entire towns and deliberately slaughtering hundreds of civilians. The leaders vow they will wipe you out. Then they hide among civilians. What do you do?

Honestly? I'd tread pretty carefully. Netanyahu and the extremists he relies on to maintain power seem to operate on the assumption that no matter how extreme their policies, the US will always be there the backstop them. But I don't think that's necessarily a given with the unpredictability of the US political scene. Particularly if Israel is seen as needlessly escalating things.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Itse

Yes, IDF needs to fight against terrorists in the moment too, but they have been going at it in a way that's kind of a guaranteed longterm failure. It's the lesson the West learned painfully in the "war on terror", in Afghanistan and in Iraq: as long as you are ready err on the side of killing civilians to get to your target, you will always create a new terrorist for every one you kill.

Israel has erred on the side of avoiding killing civilians to get their targets. Gaza would look very different today if it didn’t.

But again we’re confronted with the question of what to do about a ruthless enemy that hides among civilians. How to conduct a moral war against such an enemy? There’s no country in the world that puts the safety of enemy civilians above the safety of its own.

Do you consider the Battle of Mosul, where ISIS was defeated by a coalition of Iraqis, Kurds, and an international task force, to be a failure? More than 3,000 civilians were killed.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I believe it’s well over a thousand dead, with hundreds of children alone, while the injured have topped 6000.

It's over a 1000 dead, but those numbers include militants. Israel has destroyed thousands of buildings. If there was no warnings or direct targeting of civilians occurring, the casualties would be in the tens of thousands. Close to a half a million people have already left the North part of the Gaza Strip.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Israel has erred on the side of avoiding killing civilians to get their targets. Gaza would look very different today if it didn’t.

But again we’re confronted with the question of what to do about a ruthless enemy that hides among civilians. How to conduct a moral war against such an enemy? There’s no country in the world that puts the safety of enemy civilians above the safety of its own.

Do you consider the Battle of Mosul, where ISIS was defeated by a coalition of Iraqis, Kurds, and an international task force, to be a failure? More than 3,000 civilians were killed.

A major issue for Israel is that if they do not act, Hamas treats this like a major victory and it not only emboldens them, but every other similar group in the region. Iran, unless its infrastructure is destroyed, will also begin pouring even more weapons into the region. Israel has to looks at future avoided casualties (on both sides) in their analysis.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Itse

Yes, IDF needs to fight against terrorists in the moment too, but they have been going at it in a way that's kind of a guaranteed longterm failure. It's the lesson the West learned painfully in the "war on terror", in Afghanistan and in Iraq: as long as you are ready err on the side of killing civilians to get to your target, you will always create a new terrorist for every one you kill.

That’s why I think the “what would you do” question makes little sense. I think everyone agrees that you must respond to terrorism with force, but how you deploy that force and the decisions made leading up to this situation are absolutely in question.

That’s also why I believe the question of “how many civilians are you willing to sacrifice” is far more relevant. It’s easier to say the response needs to be ruthless, or that they must “glass” Gaza, than it is even to criticize Israel’s response. And it’s easy to think of Palestinians as “animals” to avoid thinking of the human cost, but it’s not so easy to sit down and put a real number on how many lives are worth less than the desired result.

I can at least respect the article shared a little bit back where they accepted that the cost of defending Israel would be a loss of innocence, and they would rather that than for Israel to be pitied. That’s honest. I think too many people are desperately clinging to this idea of Israel being an innocent victim. I think it’s more than fair to support Israel in their fight against Hamas while holding them accountable for the wrong they do, specifically to innocent Palestinians, along the way. Otherwise we’re just accepting that the ends always justifies the means, and I don’t think that’s right.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by Pointman

They established a state based on UN resolution and the decision of owner of the lands, that is British Empire. Palestinians never owned the lands to begin with, making "stealing" impossible.

Britain never "owned" the land. Give me a break. And I don't know this for sure but I suspect there wasn't much of a central land ownership registry in 1948, so ownership is a much more nebulous concept than you're making it. If a person had a family homestead they'd inhabited for 100 years, that's pretty much "ownership" in my books.

[gvitaly]

Here's Hamas priding itself on dismentaling water pipes and turning them into rockets. That's one of the many reason Gaza can't become anything more than a "prison".

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712495880895599033

Israel tried to fix the sewage system bring sewage pipes with the same results. Most of the concrete, and building materials go towards fortifications and military equipment. The fishing boats are also used for observation, smuggling, and sometimes in offensive operations.

Whenever a Palestinian gets a work permit, and there were tenth of thousands of them, in Israel he has to pay the Hamas.

Even today they have their security debriefs from the Shifa hospital.

Right now Hamas has shown how much of a threat it is. Israel can't go on existing with that axe hanging over its head. That's why a ground assault is being prepared. I dread the urban warfare that is to come. The Israeli soldiers dread it, because they will be walking into ambushes, and IEDs. However there's no other way to take care of this.

Right now Israel keeps sending pemphlets calling for civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip. Hamas doesn't want them to leave because of the upcoming ground assault.

Am I happy about all the innocent people dying? absolutely not. Do I believe that Israel is targeting civilians? No. Why not? Well the cynic in me thinks that it's too expensive to drop an expensive munitions on a random house/appartment etc. I believe that the targets are generated based on Intel the Shabak and Mosad recieve. Granted, based on the gap in intel that lead to the war I could see a scenario where some of the Intel is bad.

Do I think that cutting the fuel/water/food supply help in any way? No. Gaza has food and water stores for several weeks. Fuel for at least several days. It's a political move to show the people in Israel that the government is doing something. The underground tunnels have supplies for years of war, so the only ones suffering from this will be the actual innocents.

Anyways I hope that this ground assault is successful, that Hamas is erradicated and that there will be as little casualties as possible among both the civilians and Israeli soldiers.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Okay, since you mentioned context...modern Israel wasn't founded because of religious beliefs. I'm sure that was part of it for some, but Jews were looking for a homeland somewhere in the world where they could form their own state and protect themselves, because throughout their entire history they were persecuted wherever they went. Crimea was also considered at some point and possibly other areas. You're take seems pretty simplistic especially in light of looking for context.

At some point, everyone has to get over how we got here and try to make the best of it. In this particular region, Jews can lay claim to the area and so can many other groups including Palestinians. I hope you're not claiming that because the descendants of modern Canadians stole the land and tried to ethnically cleanse them and them placed them in quasi-apartheid conditions, that you'd be okay if they murdered civilians.

You think I'm okay with Hamas murdering Israelis? That's preposterous. Of course it isn't okay. I'm equally not okay with Israelis murdering Palestinians. Murdering civilians isn't okay, okay? It's absurd that had to be clarified for you.


The land they picked is entirely based on religious reasons. You think it's a coincidence they ended up in the spot they revere in their holy book?

I know Jewish people needed a safe place after the holocaust (let alone before). I wish we offered them somewhere in North America or carved out half of Germany for them. Plunking them in a sh-t-hole desert smack dab in the centre of the middle east where people already live and where they're already vehemently hated was the dumbest spot ever that ensured a forever war for them. It's insane. The only reason it is where it is is because of religion and politics. The religion aspect I roll my eyes at. Sorry, it's stupid. The political side was cruel toward the Jewish people. It's an awful land there with no hope of peace, but works to the benefit of western nations to have a dependent ally violently defending friendly land for us with a terrible human cost.

Everybody had to get over how we got here? Dude. People in Gaza and the West Bank are not going to "get over it" so that's the most simplistic thing you could possibly say. Whatever solutions (I don't believe there are any; I think this experiment was always doomed to fail if we value all human lives on both sides as equal) you propose need to take into account the needs, rights and will of Palestinians, plus a little truth and reconciliation.