Anyone know any good documentaries on this conflicts that go through the history leading up to this point? Not so much this past week, but what got them here?
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It doesn't seem quite that simple because while Israel pulled out of Gaza it still controlled the border and restricted the movement of Palestinians in and out of Gaza which was a big part of the issue and likely a part of the reason why Hamas was elected. Palestinians wanted more control and freedom of their territory and people.
i disagree. Following the disengagement from Gaza, Israel entered into a new movement agreement with the Palestinian Authority:
The disengagement occurred in September of 2005. The new movement deal was signed in November of 2005. The elections, where Hamas was elected and then a civil war between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority occurred in January of 2006.
The deal between Israel and the PA would have seen a full sea port and a permanent passage route between the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Israel pulled the deal when Hamas took over the Gaza Strip and refused to acknowledge any deals with it.
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There's Celebrations for the attacks going on throughout the world, including in Canada. If its happening in Toronto, you can bet there's at least a few here enjoying it in Calgary.
Celebrations in Iran (10:10)
Celebrations in London (Skip to 1:30)
Celebrations in Toronto (Skip to 1:55).
Two points, cutting off supplies to an enemy country is not a war crime, never has been, we cut off everything from Germany in 1939, Gaza is a country, fully independent, they also have a border with Egypt, Hamas has had 20 years to go to its Muslim backers and ask for help in building desalination plants, create an infrastructure for the country that they fully control, there are no Israeli settlements in Gaza, if it needs Israel to survive as we need the US then it has to accept Israel's existence, it has to accept its borders and work with Israel, to be frank Hamas and the backers of Gaza sound like my teenage foster kid smashing the TV in a fit of pique and then complaining their parents wont buy them a new TV, they have a country they control, they should have built things instead of engaging in an endless unwinnable war with Israel with the stated and absurd aim of wiping Israel of the face of the earth
This is it in a nutshell. Thanks for posting that. I'm still disgusted by the cowardly wonton acts against the unsuspecting, civilians and the barbaric nature of this group. In allowing Hamas to exist and condoning this behaviour makes you complicit with this highly funded group of terrorists. With a goal that is clinically insane.
I know it always needs to be said, but many things can be true at once.
Hamas is a terrorist organization who's ultimate goals are immoral and wrong. What they've done is abhorrent and will not advance the Palestinian cause. Hamas should be destroyed and support for them should make any state a pariah state.
Israel has an apartheid system of oppression against Palestinians and have been increasing anti-israeli sentiment in occupied territories by aggressively expanding settlements
Palestinians celebration of the killing of innocent people is immoral and there's no justification for it.
Destroying Gaza and killing more innocent people will not make Israel safer or hurt Hamas or help Israel in any way. It will only make things worse and it's not justice
You're not wrong.
Many of us have discussed Israel policies on here for years. Most of us agree that Israel is not always right, and that many of the things they do are oppressive.
But I don't see them murdering innocent civilians in cold bold and raping innocent women.
It will happen regardless of what we think about the situation, but Israel is justified in a complete take over of Gaza, including the utter destruction of Hamas and anyone who supports them.
There is no more two-state solution as far as Gaza is concerned. The entire area will be taken back to pre 1973 borders, with prejudice and with justification.
Everyone is right, there are consequences to actions, and sadly we are going to see thousands of thousands of innocent people pay the consequence of allowing a terrorist organization get to the point where this attack was even possible.
The last massive IDF attack on Gaza happened just two years ago. Around 250 people were killed, and 2000 were wounded, including 600 children. 10.000 people were left homeless after hundreds of civilian buildings were destroyed in clearly targeted attacks.
IDF has been purposefully targeting civilian infrastructure in Gaza for years, including extreme basics like roads, electricity, hospitals and farmland. Doctors without borders has reported hundreds of attacks on various healthcare, and along with Amnesty demandes for a war crime investigation.
In 2018 alone the World Health Organization reported 431 attacks against just the healthcare facilities in the occupied territories.
People of Gaza also can't leave. It's effectively an open air prison, one with borders that are slowly but surely moving inwards. 1.8 million people, 2/3 of them 25 or younger, live on 365 square kilometers. The borders of Gaza have been closed since 2007, which means most people living there were either born into captivity or are too young to remember anything else. UN has been warning for years that the area is becoming uninhabitable due to overcrowding and lack of resources.
So from the perspective of many Palestinians, they're not starting a war. From their perspective, they've been prisoners of war since birth, with no way out. They feel they live in a prison surrounded by a relentless, remorseless and simply evil enemy, and to many the question of why fight is moot. They have never been at peace and have never been offered peace. The options are to die fighting or die doing nothing. Either you create consequences for the enemy or you let them walk over you with impunity.
The way many Palestinians feel is that the Israeli civilians love to talk about peace, but they don't actually do anything about it. Instead they consistently either support aggression against Palestinians or simply look away. At best they maybe post sympathy messages on social media. As a democracy they could vote for change but they never do that. Their idea of helping is going to a dance party, as if that somehow helps.
Just objectively, Israeli civilians are obviously more responsible for what's been going on in Gaza than Russian civilians are responsible for what's been happening in Ukraine, because they live in an actual democracy. I don't think that means it's okay to kill Israeli civilians, but many on this board are completely okay with the idea that Russian civilians are punished for their support of the war / inaction.
Now, I know that view of Israeli civilians isn't completely fair to the citizens of Israel... but it's not really completely unfair either.
To put this in 2023 terms, the Palestianians from their perspective are Ukraine and Israel is Russia. To fight against Israel isn't really a choice, it's simply a question of how you do it most effectively, because to not fight means submitting yourself and your people to eradication, and to the more radical, there isn't really a significant different between a civilian and a soldier. Those Palestinians who have been radicalized very genuinely believe that generally speaking the citizens of Israels want Palestinians to suffer and die forever. This isn't true, but unfortunately it's a point of view that can be defended with what looks a lot like undeniable evidence if you live in Gaza.
As for what this fighting achieves... as already mentioned to some extent that's probably besides the point. When you are at war against an enemy that will never let you live in peace, fighting back is it's own goal. Retribution is it's own goal for those who have grown up to simply hate the Israelis.
There is however also the view that the only hope for Palestinians is international intervention. That the only way out us to create so much noise that other countries can't look away.
There is also the idea that if you make the ongoing slow war too hot and costly for Israel, maybe they will re-think what they are doing.
As a personal opinion, I don't think that's what's going to happen. People of Israel as a majority are just genuinely extremely supportive of always punishing Palestinians for anything and everything until the end of time, and just don't really care whether or not Palestinians overall live or die. They most definitely don't care about allowing Palestinians a reasonable standard of living. This is the main reason this conflict can't go another way. And with the US firmly blocking any chance of international intervention or sanctions, what's there to say.
Israel has very decisively chosen a dark path with Palestine, and that's the path they are on now. The innocent are paying the price with the guilty because those are the rules Israel has set for this conflict, long before this outbreak.
Why doesn't Egypt accept Palestinians? Issue them passports, etc?
Don't they also share a border? Or does that not count?
Two points, cutting off supplies to an enemy country is not a war crime, never has been, we cut off everything from Germany in 1939, Gaza is a country, fully independent, they also have a border with Egypt, Hamas has had 20 years to go to its Muslim backers and ask for help in building desalination plants, create an infrastructure for the country that they fully control, there are no Israeli settlements in Gaza, if it needs Israel to survive as we need the US then it has to accept Israel's existence, it has to accept its borders and work with Israel, to be frank Hamas and the backers of Gaza sound like my teenage foster kid smashing the TV in a fit of pique and then complaining their parents wont buy them a new TV, they have a country they control, they should have built things instead of engaging in an endless unwinnable war with Israel with the stated and absurd aim of wiping Israel of the face of the earth
The vast majority of Gaza's drinking water already comes from desalination plants, that were built with Israeli technology, and the groundwater in Gaza was never fit for drinking, as it's largely contaminated with salt:
More than 90% of the population of the Gaza Strip depends on desalinated water for drinking purposes. About 90% of the groundwater is unacceptable for drinking as a result of contamination by nitrate and chloride.
Salt leakage into Gaza's drinking water has been their major challenge, and its caused by geography and Gaza's own former reliance on coastal acquifiers:
Israel had also entered into a deal with Jordan to supply both Jordan and the Palestinian Authority with a massive desalination plant, ran at their expense:
The West Bank does not have Hamas as the leadership, and Israel builds settlements there too. This is an excuse used by Israel about Hamas, the truth is Israel will keep building and taking land and delaying negotiations until there's nothing left to negotiate
Still wondering why Egypt does not allow Palestinians to cross the border.....
Many of us have discussed Israel policies on here for years. Most of us agree that Israel is not always right, and that many of the things they do are oppressive.
But I don't see them murdering innocent civilians in cold bold and raping innocent women.
Many human rights/aid organizations have said Israel routinely targets civilians, including hospital staff and journalists. Just today Israel announced that they are cutting off food and water to Gaza, sounds like deliberate targetting to me
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Why doesn't Egypt accept Palestinians? Issue them passports, etc?
Don't they also share a border? Or does that not count?
Egypt went one step further. Anyone with Egyptian citizenship that would also qualify as a Palestinian (having been in Palestine for 2 years or more prior to the 1948, or being descended from anyone who qualified) had their Egyptian passports and land rights revoked.
Egypt continues to revoke the citizenship of Palestinians:
A bunch of people thanked this post and then IMMEDIATELY went ahead and did a whole lot of what 1, 2 and 3 are saying not to do...
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
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The disengagement occurred in September of 2005. The new movement deal was signed in November of 2005. The elections, where Hamas was elected and then a civil war between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority occurred in January of 2006.
The deal between Israel and the PA would have seen a full sea port and a permanent passage route between the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Israel pulled the deal when Hamas took over the Gaza Strip and refused to acknowledge any deals with it.
You saw the "Implementation" part right?
Quote:
AMA stipulated the opening hours of crossings between Gaza and Israel and the number of trucks/truckloads to pass through them.[12] It also stipulated that bus convoys, carrying Palestinians from Gaza to the West Bank and vice versa, would start on 15 December 2005; and truck convoys, carrying goods on the same route, would start on 15 January 2006.[13]
Palestinians, especially Hamas, insist that AMA still applies, and that it has not been honoured by Israel in relation to movement of people between Gaza and the West Bank, as neither bus nor truck convoys started by their respective dates.[13] Israel first announced that according to its interpretation, Israel was only obliged to run a "test" or "pilot" bus route and only for Palestinians meeting certain Israeli-specified requirements, then delayed this pilot project "indefinitely".[14] The part of the agreement concerning opening hours and throughput of border crossings was not implemented either.[12][15] Gazans have been invariably banned from entering the West Bank, and Israel adopted the position that they have no legal right to do so. This position has not changed since 2005.[14][16]
JERUSALEM, Dec 13, 2005 (Xinhua via COMTEX) -- Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Dan Halutz said Tuesday that Israel would not implement an agreement allowing Palestinians to travel in bus convoys between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank until the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) stops rocket fire from Gaza into Israel.
"Israel has no intention of allowing passage to Palestinian convoys from the Gaza Strip to the West Bank... while the PNA is not acting against Qassam rocket fire," Halutz told the Knesset ( parliament) Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.
Once again, we're seeing some revisionist history around timelines. Israel blockades were in response to Hamas attacks, not the other way around.
I really, really like this response from Benjamin Wittes
Number 2 is just wrong. What people will think about this going forward is formed right now, and history has proven time and time again that once emotional, significant events are put into one context or shapen into one story, it's just too late to add differing views.
So on the contrary, it's extremely important to add context right now, when things are still happening and people are still trying to grasp what's going on. Tomorrow is already a bit late, next week or next month is mostly way too late for most people.
Plenty of context was added to 9/11 after the fact, but that did absolutely nothing to stop rampant islamofobia, nor did it do anything to stop governments from turning their countries into legal surveillance states, (a development that still hasn't been rolled back).
(I wish I had more energy to affect the discussion in my own social circles like here on this board, but I just don't really have that in me right now.)
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It discusses and outlines the events the points and a lot of the misinformation used by the pro Palestinian side. I'm personally not planning to post in this thread again.
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Still wondering why Egypt does not allow Palestinians to cross the border.....
Because the Palestinians have a long history of waging war with Israel within the countries that take them in. See Black September. Egypt does not want them because they would not just integrate into their society but continue to wage war with Israel from their land when Egypt has had a peace agreement with Israel since 1973.
In short, other Arab countries do not want to deal with all of the issues they bring.
