Israel declares war on Hamas

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Hamas is known to use child soldiers.

Since we are on the topic of Palestinian children.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1710858178353873358

Ya but they are peaceful people, they definitely don’t support Hamas.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I know it always needs to be said, but many things can be true at once.

Hamas is a terrorist organization who's ultimate goals are immoral and wrong. What they've done is abhorrent and will not advance the Palestinian cause. Hamas should be destroyed and support for them should make any state a pariah state.

Israel has an apartheid system of oppression against Palestinians and have been increasing anti-israeli sentiment in occupied territories by aggressively expanding settlements

Palestinians celebration of the killing of innocent people is immoral and there's no justification for it.

Destroying Gaza and killing more innocent people will not make Israel safer or hurt Hamas or help Israel in any way. It will only make things worse and it's not justice

Lots of conjecture and not absolute truth in this post - especially in that last bullet. How do you know that to be true?

[afc wimbledon]

I have massive issues with Israeli foreign policy and see it as ultimately pointless and self defeating, that said while Israel may have more power they are also a more moral regime by my standards, Israel has an LGBTQ population, Gaza kills them, Israel has an arab muslim population, not always well treated but alive, a jew in Gaza would last about as long as my trans kid, if one side has to win then I'd rather it was Israel

As to Hamas I suspect they have just won the decades 'eff around and find out' award and I really dont care at this point, I kpnow I should, I know what the IDF is about to do to Gaza will be horrific and I dont blame them one jot, maybe in a month or two I will care but right now I wouldn't blame Israel if they level the whole place and forced the whole population into Egypt

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I have massive issues with Israeli foreign policy and see it as ultimately pointless and self defeating, that said while Israel may have more power they are also a more moral regime by my standards, Israel has an LGBTQ population, Gaza kills them, Israel has an arab muslim population, not always well treated but alive, a jew in Gaza would last about as long as my trans kid, if one side has to win then I'd rather it was Israel

As to Hamas I suspect they have just won the decades 'eff around and find out' award and I really dont care at this point, I kpnow I should, I know what the IDF is about to do to Gaza will be horrific and I dont blame them one jot, maybe in a month or two I will care but right now I wouldn't blame Israel if they level the whole place and forced the whole population into Egypt

Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant- "This phenomenon will not continue. We will change reality on the ground in Gaza for the next 50 years. What was before, will be no more. We will operate at full force."

There have been studies on how to best achieve lasting peace, and the evidence shows that lasting peace is best achieved when one side loses everything and is conquered by the other. Like ripping off a band aid. It sure sucks for the people living at that time, but when measured over generations, the suffering is less.

It's difficult to understand what it is like for an Israeli. We can criticize their tactics and policies, but they also live with security concerns that most Canadians and Westerners can't relate to. They've been attacked since the the birth of their country and even before then. Like you said, for all their faults (or at least what we consider faults base on our world views), they still have something that resembles a free liberal democracy. For everything people criticize their government for, the countries that surround them are even worse.

[jeffman]

Well good by Palestine it was nice knowing ya

[CaptainCrunch]

Hamas is a death cult, they don't give two craps about the people living in the West Bank and in Gaza, they're disposable pawns. In fact the more civilian Palestinians that die, the happier Hamas and their members and Iran is.

This is going to be gruesome to see. Israel is rightfully enraged right now and in no mood to show moderation.

They've communicated evacuation plans to Palestinians.

Oh and those Hostages that Hamas took, they're probably already dead.

[Manhattanboy]

Jake Tapper on CNN interviewed a mother whose teenage children were kidnapped by Hamas terrorists. Gut wrenching.

This is unprecedented in the history of modern Israel. I suspect the psyche of the country has been shaken, much like what happened to Americans on 9/11.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Lots of conjecture and not absolute truth in this post - especially in that last bullet. How do you know that to be true?

They've done it twice and it's not made them safer...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza...8%E2%80%932009)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War

[Beninho]

Israel moving tanks and heavy artillery to the south. A ground invasion seems imminent within the next week or two.

[transplant99]

Hezbollah confirms they were part of the cowardice as well

https://twitter.com/user/status/1710895828397690998

[Snuffleupagus]

Great, Hezbollah now getting involved, I smell a Russia/Iran stink bomb that might turn into a full scale nightmare.

[combustiblefuel]

This is religion's fault let's not get #### twisted. Jews wanted a empire they can control around their and Islam's sites after world War 1 . The british government bribed them to get support. The Muslims don't like how their native homelands are being controlled and taken away by what the see as an occupation what was Palestine controlled territory historically.


Religion needs to die off . The big man ain't real and he won't help you so stop fighting over fables made by man millennium ago .

Both sides are equally wrong in my eyes.

I've seen people compare this to Ukraine. Imo not the same . Ukraine was just hanging out chill not attacking Russia periodically. Russia was like that toxic ex . If I can't have you no one will!

Since the USA wouldn't fund more money to a non UN member for being attacked out of the blue will Isreal get the same support now? I don't think they should . The Ukraine never provoked Russia like Isreal intruded on traditional Palistine homelands.

I think IMO since Israel's a non UN member and not exactly a boy scout, this is the type of way you stay the #### out of in support of either side. Neither of the sides have clean hands . Both sides poked the bear many times.

I say the west and the east stay the #### out of it and let them settle it.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

This is religion's fault let's not get #### twisted. Jess wanted a empire they can control around their and Islam's sites after world War 1 . The Muslims don't like how their native homelands are being controlled by what the see as an occupation what was Palestine controlled territory historically.


Religion needs to die off . The big man ain't real and he won't help you so stop fighting over fables made by man millennium ago .

Both sides are equally wrong in my eyes.

I don't think it's just religion. For example, Albania has a Muslim majority and has been a supporter of Israel from the beginning. They are the only European country that had a larger Jewish population after WW2 than it had before the war. They helped many Jews escape Europe during WW2 by operating a kind of "underground railway", even during Italian occupation. The difference between Albania and countries in the ME, is that Albania is also fully European in culture.

[Nage Waza]

Combustible, your post is not true, pretty gross if you ask me.

The region was controlled by the Ottoman empire, followed by the British empire who proposed a solution involving several states. UN agreed and Israel was created, along with other countries. Israel was attacked over and over, here we are. This will not be much different, hopefully this is a wake up call for Palestinians to be disgusted by their wasted years and finally say enough, let’s work on a solution that is peaceful. Unfortunately, Israel will not sit idly now and this footage might be enough to wipe out the hateful rhetoric that only blames Israel and never takes into account the region Israel exists in.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

This is religion's fault let's not get #### twisted. Jews wanted a empire they can control around their and Islam's sites after world War 1 . The british government bribed them to get support. The Muslims don't like how their native homelands are being controlled and taken away by what the see as an occupation what was Palestine controlled territory historically.


Religion needs to die off . The big man ain't real and he won't help you so stop fighting over fables made by man millennium ago .

Both sides are equally wrong in my eyes.

Palestine has never controlled any territory, historically the land was Ottoman, British and now Jewish.

I agree with the religious part, the sooner people grow brain cells the better.

[Itse]

People have ridiculously short memories here.

The last massive IDF attack on Gaza happened just two years ago. Around 250 people were killed, and 2000 were wounded, including 600 children. 10.000 people were left homeless after hundreds of civilian buildings were destroyed in clearly targeted attacks.

IDF has been purposefully targeting civilian infrastructure in Gaza for years, including extreme basics like roads, electricity, hospitals and farmland. Doctors without borders has reported hundreds of attacks on various healthcare, and along with Amnesty demandes for a war crime investigation.

In 2018 alone the World Health Organization reported 431 attacks against just the healthcare facilities in the occupied territories.

People of Gaza also can't leave. It's effectively an open air prison, one with borders that are slowly but surely moving inwards. 1.8 million people, 2/3 of them 25 or younger, live on 365 square kilometers. The borders of Gaza have been closed since 2007, which means most people living there were either born into captivity or are too young to remember anything else. UN has been warning for years that the area is becoming uninhabitable due to overcrowding and lack of resources.

So from the perspective of many Palestinians, they're not starting a war. From their perspective, they've been prisoners of war since birth, with no way out. They feel they live in a prison surrounded by a relentless, remorseless and simply evil enemy, and to many the question of why fight is moot. They have never been at peace and have never been offered peace. The options are to die fighting or die doing nothing. Either you create consequences for the enemy or you let them walk over you with impunity.

The way many Palestinians feel is that the Israeli civilians love to talk about peace, but they don't actually do anything about it. Instead they consistently either support aggression against Palestinians or simply look away. At best they maybe post sympathy messages on social media. As a democracy they could vote for change but they never do that. Their idea of helping is going to a dance party, as if that somehow helps.

Just objectively, Israeli civilians are obviously more responsible for what's been going on in Gaza than Russian civilians are responsible for what's been happening in Ukraine, because they live in an actual democracy. I don't think that means it's okay to kill Israeli civilians, but many on this board are completely okay with the idea that Russian civilians are punished for their support of the war / inaction.

Now, I know that view of Israeli civilians isn't completely fair to the citizens of Israel... but it's not really completely unfair either.

To put this in 2023 terms, the Palestianians from their perspective are Ukraine and Israel is Russia. To fight against Israel isn't really a choice, it's simply a question of how you do it most effectively, because to not fight means submitting yourself and your people to eradication, and to the more radical, there isn't really a significant different between a civilian and a soldier. Those Palestinians who have been radicalized very genuinely believe that generally speaking the citizens of Israels want Palestinians to suffer and die forever. This isn't true, but unfortunately it's a point of view that can be defended with what looks a lot like undeniable evidence if you live in Gaza.

As for what this fighting achieves... as already mentioned to some extent that's probably besides the point. When you are at war against an enemy that will never let you live in peace, fighting back is it's own goal. Retribution is it's own goal for those who have grown up to simply hate the Israelis.

There is however also the view that the only hope for Palestinians is international intervention. That the only way out us to create so much noise that other countries can't look away.

There is also the idea that if you make the ongoing slow war too hot and costly for Israel, maybe they will re-think what they are doing.

As a personal opinion, I don't think that's what's going to happen. People of Israel as a majority are just genuinely extremely supportive of always punishing Palestinians for anything and everything until the end of time, and just don't really care whether or not Palestinians overall live or die. They most definitely don't care about allowing Palestinians a reasonable standard of living. This is the main reason this conflict can't go another way. And with the US firmly blocking any chance of international intervention or sanctions, what's there to say.

Israel has very decisively chosen a dark path with Palestine, and that's the path they are on now. The innocent are paying the price with the guilty because those are the rules Israel has set for this conflict, long before this outbreak.

[Delthefunky]

What's the population of non Israelis in Gaza? Are we looking at another refugee crisis?

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't think it's just religion. For example, Albania has a Muslim majority and has been a supporter of Israel from the beginning. They are the only European country that had a larger Jewish population after WW2 than it had before the war. They helped many Jews escape Europe during WW2 by operating a kind of "underground railway", even during Italian occupation. The difference between Albania and countries in the ME, is that Albania is also fully European in culture.

The ottoman empire was mainly Sunni Islam controlled...

We are arguing needle in the haystack postion here. It boils down to Jews vs Islam. Islam had the area for 600 years before the British carved out a traditional Islam Homeland and was like this is fine..

Despite the area both housing majour mosques and twmples or both religions. Absolute power over the region should have never been given to 9ne religion or the other.

The white papers detailed this but were only in effect for 4 years. The region for 90% of history was Arab controlled. The british governent brided the jews in europe to fight agaist Austria and germany in world War 1 and after with the promise of a zionist controlled state. The ottoman empire obviously sided with Germany and after their defeat the British took control of th Arab sunni land and decided this was the land to make good on that promise.
The British during the transition of Arab to Jewish control of the area squashed many Arab uprisings but ultimately the British army backed out as they deemed to many loses .
Historically the area was has always been contested as Jerusalem ( thanks any religion ) is their holy ground. From Christians to jews ( they literally are fight over the same God just differ on how to) . The British unilaterally decided one religion should rule all of them .

Agian I have no dog in this fight but both sides are wrong and it is what it is . It's a holy war in the name of God on both sides . It bs and we should not fund it nor the states . Both sides have been proviking it for decades and a millennia. The fact isreal dosent see their actions to what Hitler did to them is insane. Absolutely insane.

I'd like to see that funding Ukraine over isreal.


Long story short . Britain beat Germany and their allies in ww1. Bribed a relegous sect . Temporary over sight of a territory they had. The going got tough Britain bailed in a manner of " I'm sure this will work out ' and here we are today.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Palestine has never controlled any territory, historically the land was Ottoman, British and now Jewish.

I agree with the religious part, the sooner people grow brain cells the better.

Again the ottoman empire was Sunni Islam controlled for 600 years.....

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Itse

People have ridiculously short memories here.

The last massive IDF attack on Gaza happened just two years ago. Around 250 people were killed, and 2000 were wounded, including 600 children. 10.000 people were left homeless after hundreds of civilians buildings were destroyed in clearly targeted attacks.

IDF has been purposefully targeting civilian infrastructure in Gaza for years, including extreme basics like roads, electricity, hospitals and farmland. Doctors without borders has reported hundreds of attacks on various healthcare, and along with Amnesty demandes for a war crime investigation.

In 2018 alone the World Health Organization reported 431 attacks against just the healthcare facilities in the occupied territories.

People of Gaza also can't leave. It's effectively an open air prison, one with borders that are slowly but surely moving inwards. 1.8 million people, 2/3 of them 25 or younger, live on 365 square kilometers. The borders of Gaza have been closed since 2007, which means most people living there were either born into captivity or are too young to remember anything else. UN has been warning for years that the area is becoming uninhabitable due to overcrowding and lack of resources.

So from the perspective of many Palestinians, they're not starting a war. From their perspective, they've been prisoners of war since birth, with no way out. They feel they live in a prison surrounded by a relentless, remorseless and simply evil enemy, and to many the question of why fight is moot. They have never been at peace and have never been offered peace. The options are to die fighting or die doing nothing. Either you create consequences for the enemy or you let them walk over you with impunity.

The way manu Palestinians feel is that the Israeli civilians love to talk about peace, but they don't actually do anything about it. Instead they consistently either support aggression against Palestinians or simply look away. At best they maybe post sympathy messages on social media. As a democracy they could vote for change but they never do that. Their idea of helping is going to a dance party, as if that somehow helps.

Just objectively, Israeli civilians are just obviously more responsible for what's been going on in Gaza than Russian civilians are responsible for what's been happening in Ukraine, because they live in an actual democracy. I don't think that means it's okay to kill Israeli civilians, but many on this board are completely okay with the idea that Russian civilians are punished for their support of the war / inaction.

Now, I know that view of Israeli civilians isn't completely fair to the citizens of Israel... but it's not really completely unfair either.

To put this in 2023 terms, the Palestianians from their perspective are Ukraine and Israel is Russia. To fight against Israel isn't really a choice, it's simply a question of how you do it most effectively, because to not fight means submitting yourself and your people to eradication, and to the more radical, there isn't really a significant different between a civilian and a soldier. Those Palestinians who have been radicalized very genuinely believe that generally speaking the citizens of Israels want Palestinians to suffer and die forever. This isn't true, but unfortunately it's a point of view that can be defended with what looks a lot like undeniable evidence if you live in Gaza.

As for what this fighting achieves... as already mentioned to some extent that's probably besides the point. When you are at war against an enemy that will never let you live in peace, fighting back is it's own goal. Retribution is it's own goal for those who have grown up to simply hate the Israelis.

There is however also the view that the only hope for Palestinians is international intervention. That the only way out us to create so much noise that other countries can't look away.

There is also the idea that if you make the ongoing slow war too hot and costly for Israel, maybe they will re-think what they are doing.

As a personal opinion, I don't think that's what's going to happen. People of Israel as a majority are just genuinely extremely supportive of always punishing Palestinians for anything and everything until the end of time, and just don't really care whether or not Palestinians overall live or die. They most definitely don't care about allowing Palestinians a reasonable standard of living. This is the main reason this conflict can't go another way. And with the US firmly blocking any chance of international intervention or sanctions, what's there to say.

Israel has very decisively chosen a dark path with Palestine, and that's the path they are on now. The innocent are paying the price with the guilty because those are the rules Israel has set for this conflict, long before this outbreak.

It is an open air prison ! The Israeli government won the land in a war against Egypt.

Both sides historically are in the wrong .