Sutter is the problem

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The Flames are 8th for homeplate shots this season.

This isn't a perimeter issue.

They're 18th in home plate danger though, so they're not getting the home plate shots with an event to get the goalie moving.

That could be coaching, but the Flames were 11th in home plate danger last year, so it wasn't being coached out.

So I think it's partly a different team with less players that either can or are willing to take the puck into the danger areas and create chaos.

I think it's two things ...

1) a roster that doesn't have the one on one skills to create the high danger events

2) a coach that puts shot volume number one, perhaps eliminating the possibility for the high danger too often in exchange for a shot count

That and the randomness of hockey makes me think you could bring back the entire roster and Sutter next year and be 2nd in the division.

But Sutter's stubbornness has worn thin with me. I feel he's coaching to stick it to someone at all times ... the fans? the GM? the ownership?

Getting old.

We may not agree all the time but I do appreciate you digging deeper into the stats. You pull up some interesting tidbits.

I think it is a safe style to play low event hockey both ways leading to less breakdowns and cutting back goals against while stifling your own team. By low event in the offensive zone I mean less risky plays which could lead to a turnover going the other way and I don't see our defence as active either. We get it some games and other games it's non existent.

It feels that way but I just think it's his methods and they just don't work in today's game.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The Flames are 8th for homeplate shots this season.

This isn't a perimeter issue.

They're 18th in home plate danger though, so they're not getting the home plate shots with an event to get the goalie moving.

That could be coaching, but the Flames were 11th in home plate danger last year, so it wasn't being coached out.

So I think it's partly a different team with less players that either can or are willing to take the puck into the danger areas and create chaos.

I think it's two things ...

1) a roster that doesn't have the one on one skills to create the high danger events

2) a coach that puts shot volume number one, perhaps eliminating the possibility for the high danger too often in exchange for a shot count

That and the randomness of hockey makes me think you could bring back the entire roster and Sutter next year and be 2nd in the division.

But Sutter's stubbornness has worn thin with me. I feel he's coaching to stick it to someone at all times ... the fans? the GM? the ownership?

Getting old.

The media? All of the above? Him against the world? Very keanan-esque at times. Again, if he's accountable to essentially nobody, it is a massive organizational disfunction. If you plan on moving forward with him as coach, which I think you should, get someone who he will fall in line to like Lombardi. Too bad it's not BT but it's becoming more and more evident that this was not a tre hire.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

What was Quick save % when they went 16-4?

You like to cherry pick stats just like how Sutter isn't a offensive black hole and can only produce one season.

Even a hall of famer like Iginla bad his numbers take a nose dive under Sutter. He will get his defensive metrics but skill comes to die with him.

I’m not cherry picking stats, you’re the one trying to discount Sutter’s Stanley Cups by saying he rode a hot goalie and I’m showing you that’s not the case and did you even watch the 2012 Stanley Cup run by the Kings?

It was one of the dominant runs in NHL history where the Jonathan Quick regularly faced 17-18 shots per game. They outscored their opposition 57-30 with a goal differential of +27 while the second best team had a goal differential of +2. The Kings could’ve had you in net and still won the Cup.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Why would you isolate this part of his record and not look at his actual, you know, wins?

If you're going to lay offensive production solely at the feet of the coach, maybe you should put everything else there too.

Because we are discussing the offence as a stand alone issue.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Because we are discussing the offence as a stand alone issue.

The name of the thread is Sutter is THE problem.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I’m not cherry picking stats, you’re the one trying to discount Sutter’s Stanley Cups by saying he rode a hot goalie and I’m showing you that’s not the case and did you even watch the 2012 Stanley Cup run by the Kings?

It was one of the dominant runs in NHL history where the Jonathan Quick regularly faced 17-18 shots per game. They outscored their opposition 57-30 with a goal differential of +27 while the second best team had a goal differential of +2. The Kings could’ve had you in net and still won the Cup.

Yeah it was dominant no denying that but again 1.5 goals against per game.

You need to have near perfect defensive metrics and goalie with a Sutter coached team to have success he is over reliant on that. His teams have the offence coached out of them that's why his regular seasons are medicore it's a hard way to play when the coach wants a 2-1 result every game.

Even Craig Conroy said Sutter wants to win every game 1-0. It might work for a short period of time in the end it wears thin quickly.

Same guy who stood up at the podium after we lost to the Wings and proclaimed goals for is a bunch of bs and it's all about goals against.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

The name of the thread is Sutter is THE problem.

Yup and you brought to goals for being an issue and I pointed out its always going to be an issue with Sutter based on his history. That is all not sure why you are being snippy.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

11 years ago.

The games changed ALOT.

He also had Prime Doughty, Brown, Kopitar Carter, Voynov , Williams.

Have the playoffs changed that much though? Tampa learned you have to check in order to score goals in the Stanley Cup playoffs so they made that adjustment and the Blues won just a few years ago playing slow, grinding, heavy type of hockey.

It’s not any one type of style that wins playoff games, we’ve seen all kinds of styles win in the playoffs over the years. It ultimately comes down to individuals a lot of times and matchups and how you ultimately dictate your game to your opponent.

Also you’re right, Sutter did have a #1 franchise center, a #1 franchise defenseman and key role players. Do the Flames currently have a legit #1 franchise center or a legit #1 franchise defenseman?

[JohnnyB]

The team lost a lot of top-end skill, top-end chemistry, and top-end goalie performance. I don't see that as a Sutter issue. If the current team added back those three things they lost from last year, they would be back at the top of the division this year. The problem is that the new guys couldn't replace the old guys in terms of talent and chemistry, and Markstrom has had a brutal season. Unfortunately, these issues have also made them brutal to watch and hard to care about or like.

I think it's pretty possible you could bring back the exact same group with same coach after a long summer off and get much better results next season.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The Flames are 8th for homeplate shots this season.

This isn't a perimeter issue.

They're 18th in home plate danger though, so they're not getting the home plate shots with an event to get the goalie moving.

That could be coaching, but the Flames were 11th in home plate danger last year, so it wasn't being coached out.

So I think it's partly a different team with less players that either can or are willing to take the puck into the danger areas and create chaos.

I think it's two things ...

1) a roster that doesn't have the one on one skills to create the high danger events

2) a coach that puts shot volume number one, perhaps eliminating the possibility for the high danger too often in exchange for a shot count

That and the randomness of hockey makes me think you could bring back the entire roster and Sutter next year and be 2nd in the division.

But Sutter's stubbornness has worn thin with me. I feel he's coaching to stick it to someone at all times ... the fans? the GM? the ownership?

Getting old.

Sutter is stubborn. It's both what I like, and don't like about him. He doesn't throw his lines in a blender, he doesn't jump from one approachthing
He believes he knows what is needed to win and he sticks with it. Period. If it's a war of wills, he is going to win.

It's just tough as a fan to have faith that it will work out when the results aren't there. An entire season down the drain with such a veteran group is just a big downer. And we don't live in a keep the faith kind of world. Fans are going to complain about any coach as soon as the results aren't what we want and every coach eventually gets run out of town. Even Badger Bob who everyone remembers fondly and left on his own. No one was too happy with him after his last season before leaving.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Yup and you brought to goals for being an issue and I pointed out its always going to be an issue with Sutter based on his history. That is all not sure why you are being snippy.

Don't mean to be snippy. Point is that if you look at his history, his teams score enough to win.

Not true this year.

[JohnnyB]

What's the message that gets sent to a team with new top players who just signed long-term contracts if the team dumps Sutter now?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Yeah it was dominant no denying that but again 1.5 goals against per game.

You need to have near perfect defensive metrics and goalie with a Sutter coached team to have success he is over reliant on that. His teams have the offence coached out of them that's why his regular seasons are medicore it's a hard way to play when the coach wants a 2-1 result every game.

Even Craig Conroy said Sutter wants to win every game 1-0. It might work for a short period of time in the end it wears thin quickly.

Same guy who stood up at the podium after we lost to the Wings and proclaimed goals for is a bunch of bs and it's all about goals against.

Let’s just cut to the chase here because this merry go round is getting tiresome and there’s so many better things in life to do than be on a message board all day arguing about the same things over and over and over.

The conversation really just boils down to whether or not Sutter’s stifling defensive system has inhibited Huberdeau’s ability to produce. The answer is probably a yes to a certain degree.

But then why is a guy like Tyler Toffoli, under the exact same conditions, coach, systems, situation, even less minutes, on pace to best his career high in goals and points? What’s he doing that Huberdeau isn’t doing?

How does a guy like Kirill Kaprizov score 39 goals (49g pace), 74 points (93p pace) on an even more defensively minded and stifling defensive system in Minnesota? How did Gaudreau and Tkachuk do what they did last season under Sutter?

When does the played who’s actually on the ice have to own up for his lack of production here? We’ve seen him play games where he's played well under the “system,” that NY Rangers game comes to mind. What did he do well in that game that gave him success? Is it that he’s just a lazy skilled player who needs his agent to light a fire under him every game?

Like, instead of the lame, generic, blame the coach blanket statements that’s so easy to throw out there, what would be your actual analysis of why Huberdeau has failed to produce this season while others have? I certainly have mine and would gladly offer it after I see your take.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Let’s just cut to the chase here because this merry go round is getting tiresome and there’s so many better things in life to do than be on a message board all day arguing about the same things over and over and over.

The conversation really just boils down to whether or not Sutter’s stifling defensive system has inhibited Huberdeau’s ability to produce. The answer is probably a yes to a certain degree.

But then why is a guy like Tyler Toffoli, under the exact same conditions, coach, systems, situation, even less minutes, on pace to best his career high in goals and points? What’s he doing that Huberdeau isn’t doing?

How does a guy like Kirill Kaprizov score 39 goals (49g pace), 74 points (93p pace) on an even more defensively minded and stifling defensive system in Minnesota? How did Gaudreau and Tkachuk do what they did last season under Sutter?

When does the played who’s actually on the ice have to own up for his lack of production here? We’ve seen him play games where he's played well under the “system,” that NY Rangers game comes to mind. What did he do well in that game that gave him success? Is it that he’s just a lazy skilled player who needs his agent to light a fire under him every game?

Like, instead of the lame, generic, blame the coach blanket statements that’s so easy to throw out there, what would be your actual analysis of why Huberdeau has failed to produce this season while others have? I certainly have mine and would gladly offer it after I see your take.

Great post!

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

What's the message that gets sent to a team with new top players who just signed long-term contracts if the team dumps Sutter now?

I don't know what you're trying to imply, so just say it instead okay?

To me, it says to them that the team is willing to make changes if things aren't going well, especially if you have an entire season below expectations. It depends on what management sees the problem as being. It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario when it comes to player performance and coaching. It's hard to know where accountability for one begins and one ends. But you know the old saying. It's a lot easier to change one coach than it is to change 20-some players.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Let’s just cut to the chase here because this merry go round is getting tiresome and there’s so many better things in life to do than be on a message board all day arguing about the same things over and over and over.



The conversation really just boils down to whether or not Sutter’s stifling defensive system has inhibited Huberdeau’s ability to produce. The answer is probably a yes to a certain degree.



But then why is a guy like Tyler Toffoli, under the exact same conditions, coach, systems, situation, even less minutes, on pace to best his career high in goals and points? What’s he doing that Huberdeau isn’t doing?



How does a guy like Kirill Kaprizov score 39 goals (49g pace), 74 points (93p pace) on an even more defensively minded and stifling defensive system in Minnesota? How did Gaudreau and Tkachuk do what they did last season under Sutter?



When does the played who’s actually on the ice have to own up for his lack of production here? We’ve seen him play games where he's played well under the “system,” that NY Rangers game comes to mind. What did he do well in that game that gave him success? Is it that he’s just a lazy skilled player who needs his agent to light a fire under him every game?



Like, instead of the lame, generic, blame the coach blanket statements that’s so easy to throw out there, what would be your actual analysis of why Huberdeau has failed to produce this season while others have? I certainly have mine and would gladly offer it after I see your take.

Toffoli doesn't have to play with Kadri. Has played much of the season with Lindholm and Dube.

Don't know about Kaprisov.

Johnny and Chucky complemented each other and had a great centreman in Lindholm between them.

Huberdeau deserves scrutiny and some blame but he hasn't been put in a position to succeed. Almost whole season with a centreman who he doesn't gel with. Playing his off wing. Publically ridiculed by his coach in the oddest way to start the relationship off.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I don't know what you're trying to imply, so just say it instead okay?

To me, it says to them that the team is willing to make changes if things aren't going well, especially if you have an entire season below expectations. It depends on what management sees the problem as being. It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario when it comes to player performance and coaching. It's hard to know where accountability for one begins and one ends. But you know the old saying. It's a lot easier to change one coach than it is to change 20-some players.

It's a team that's got a bunch of guys who had a very successful season last year under a coach who is a multiple cup winner and who everyone knows is there to specifically try to win another one with this team and is dedicated to that, and you've got a small number of new guys who came in on big contracts to help the team reach that level but who have underperformed badly. If they dump the coach because those new guys joined the team and didn't perform on their big new contracts, it's basically like saying to the players and to any future coach that this team runs through those new guys - guys who have done nothing since joining the Flames to earn that.

It strikes me as a bad message to the preceding players about the trustworthiness of the organization to stick to a vision of what they're supposed to be building together, and a bad message to any incoming coach about who's in charge of the team.

I don't think the organization should let any of them off the hook that easily. They should have to work through it as a team, even if that sucks. If they can't, then blow everything up, including dumping those new guys for whatever can be recuperated because they can't be part of building a new core.

[GioforPM]

I just don’t see “lazy skilled player” when I watch Huberdeau. There’s nothing lazy about his game, especially when compared to Gaudreau or Tkachuk. Or some present Flames.

People are acting like last season was the only one to look at for the top line guys. Players have years where it doesn’t go well. Huberdeau has had that kind of a season. But also his deployment and minutes as well as how the power play is set up haven’t helped.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

It's a team that's got a bunch of guys who had a very successful season last year under a coach who is a multiple cup winner and who everyone knows is there to specifically try to win another one with this team and is dedicated to that, and you've got a small number of new guys who came in on big contracts to help the team reach that level but who have underperformed badly. If they dump the coach because those new guys joined the team and didn't perform on their big new contracts, it's basically like saying to the players and to any future coach that this team runs through those new guys - guys who have done nothing since joining the Flames to earn that.

It strikes me as a bad message to the preceding players about the trustworthiness of the organization to stick to a vision of what they're supposed to be building together, and a bad message to any incoming coach about who's in charge of the team.

I don't think the organization should let any of them off the hook that easily. They should have to work through it as a team, even if that sucks. If they can't, then blow everything up, including dumping those new guys for whatever can be recuperated because they can't be part of building a new core.

I just want to point out that the team didn't do very well under Sutter at first either, but last year you had 2 superstars who were entering contract years, and played out of their minds to elevate them from a solid playoff team to a great one...and then they fizzled in the playoffs.

I just think that you cannot be too wistful about the past. It's all about what have you done for me lately, unfortunately. I'm not keen to show Sutter the door because I know he can be a good coach, but let's face facts here, he's done a very, very poor job handling this team this year. You only have to look at the inconsistency from night to night to understand what's wrong. Either he doesn't know what buttons to push, or simply refuses to push those buttons out of stubbornness, or even worse, the team simply doesn't respond to any of his methods any longer and have tuned him out. No matter the reason, the things you see from this team indicate a broken relationship with the coach. Maybe it can be fixed, but knowing Sutter's history in other locations, I doubt it can.

It's all about assessing the problems with the team's performance and making the appropriate changes, even if that means firing a 2 time stanley cup winning coach who is coming off a Jack Adams award. If you see his methods as being a distinct issue that cannot be corrected, the only prudent thing is to fire him and find another strategy. It's just the way it goes sometimes.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I just don’t see “lazy skilled player” when I watch Huberdeau. There’s nothing lazy about his game, especially when compared to Gaudreau or Tkachuk. Or some present Flames.

People are acting like last season was the only one to look at for the top line guys. Players have years where it doesn’t go well. Huberdeau has had that kind of a season. But also his deployment and minutes as well as how the power play is set up haven’t helped.

I don't like the word lazy about players. I certainly wouldn't have said that about Gaudreau or Tkachuk. Neal would probably be an example of someone who fits that bill.

But Huberdeau is not a high energy player. Nor does he play with a ton of speed.

He is definitely having an off year but the comparison to those players is not flattering. Gaudreau's worst year was 58 points in 70 games. Huberdeau needs 16 points in his next 7 games to match that.