You Know What Really Grinds My Gears? Now with 3x more gears...

[Looch City]

This is true, WFH will eventually lead to the downfall of western and Canadian civilization as we know it!

All because of this brand new thing called...outsourcing. Which is completely new and not currently done at all.

God forbid we have some work/life balance in North America. People are obsessed with work and appeasing to their superiors.

[CroFlames]

My boss doesn't care if I WFH or office. Our operation is in Calgary and I choose to be at the office/operation as it makes my job easier and interaction easier. I live close to my work so things are really good.

I'm not boomer or even Gen X.

I can understand if you work strictly in a service or tech industry, or if your operations are in Fort Mac and your office is in Calgary. WFH is the more attractive option.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

What grinds my gears is anytime someone has an idea to improve the lives of workers the “they’ll just outsource your jobs” comes up. Like that should be acceptable to anyone, that people who live amongst us will no longer be able to pay into the cities we live because their jobs will be outsourced for daring to ask for some improvements.

I think it's just capitalism. It's not only driven by the profit motive of executives, which it obviously is, but I think equally by consumers demanding lower and lower prices.

I marvel at how the market has changed in the 20 years I've been operating my business. I'm not really a greedy type of guy and I held out years longer than made business sense before outsourcing some of my manufacturing to China, but ultimately, my customers just wanted lower and lower prices and didn't give one. single. fata. about "Canadian-made" "buying local" "supporting Calgary jobs" etc. I don't even blame them...who doesn't want the best price?

There are only so many levers a business can pull to give people what they want at the prices they want. Out-sourcing isn't just about fat cats wanting to enrich themselves; you can stand on your principles for only so long until you're a principled guy with a shuttered business.

On the executive side of things, the cat's out of the bag on outsourcing white-collar jobs. There's no way it isn't already happening and I'm not sure how much it slows down - and it definitely won't stop - if people go back into the office.

Just look at Ducay's sentiments. That's the type of guy in leadership at a lot of these companies. He doesn't give a fata if working from home gives you a better life. Probably is offended at the notion of you throwing in a load of laundry before your Teams meeting starts. Whether you're in the office or not won't make him value you more. If there's a cheaper option for labour they'll gravitate towards it. At first it'll be for a competitive advantage, but once that ball is rolling down the hill (and I think it already is) every company will be outsourcing everything they can just to stay competitive. That is, there will be no advantage to doing it; only disadvantage to not doing it.

As a consumer, are you going to buy widgets from iggie_oi's at a premium because he's paying more in labour for WFH Calgarians, or would you rather buy the same widget from Ducay because they're less expensive due to him outsourcing labour? You'll all buy Ducay's, don't lie.

So in the meantime, I think people should enjoy WFH to the extent they can. You're not going to win this battle either way, so you should get what you can out of it while you can.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Ducay's post is funny, but it is certainly not an uncommon sentiment; particularly during COVID.

A few people i worked with noted that some of the big companies downtown had many manager (low-upper) come to work everyday and essentially drink the company kool-aid as it was a badge of honour to be filling out spreadsheets in a dead office during a pandemic...

After people started coming back to the office, there was some resentment and tribal mentalities among those who didnt work from home.

These folks were almost entirely shameless ladder climbers.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Slava

100%. Be careful what you wish for. Why should your employer pay you say $100k a year to do work when they could hire someone with the same skillset elsewhere for say $50k/year?

I'm also fully prepared to hear about how I'm a dinosaur and "boomer" (I'm not, but whatever). The truth is there is a lot of value to working with other people and exchanging ideas and information. One of the annoying things about WFH is how every conversation becomes a meeting. What was once "hey, did you hear about this?" or simple little conversations just don't happen when you work in isolation. It does depend on what you do and how you operate, but in some businesses, that's enormously valuable.

And don't even get me started on the inefficacy of Zoom/Teams for a board/committee meeting. It's a stop-gap that works when there is no better option...but the better option is a face-to-face.

Aren’t you an accountant?

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by Slava

What's the fear-mongering? It's just the harsh reality of the situation. If you work for a company and WFH for $100k a year and the employer could pay someone half for the same work, why wouldn't they move to that?

I don't know if you've spread enough fear. If the company was paying someone $100,000, why wouldn't they pay someone else $50,000. Now, once they have that $50,000, they find someone else who will do it for $25,000. Once that employee has been found they find someone who will do it for $12,500. The cycle continues until someone is doing is for pennies, or possibly paying the company for the privilege of doing the work.

There is no use getting into the skill set and knowledge may rest with the person doing the job for $100,000, or they may need that person to come into the office 1-2 times per year, speak the same language, be in a similar time zone, be familiar with local regulations and standards, have certain certifications, etc. Basically unless you go back to the office full time, your company will find someone to do the job for half the amount.

Even though people were able to keep the companies going for their employers from their kitchen tables, while juggling child care, working beside their spouses, and the uncertainty of living through a global pandemic, the employees should definitely be scared that after proving they can work from home under difficult circumstances, they can easily be replaced at half their salary if they don't start commuting.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Slava

And don't even get me started on the inefficacy of Zoom/Teams for a board/committee meeting. It's a stop-gap that works when there is no better option...but the better option is a face-to-face.

On what basis are you making that evaluation?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Aren’t you an accountant?

You’re just trying to get both he and Locke all riled up, aren’t you Pepsi?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

On what basis are you making that evaluation?

It’s funny, the trope about meetings for a solid decade while they were mostly done in person was that they were almost all useless and inefficient wastes of time. Now they are fondly looked back upon as the only possible way to collaborate.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I think it's just capitalism. It's not only driven by the profit motive of executives, which it obviously is, but I think equally by consumers demanding lower and lower prices.

I marvel at how the market has changed in the 20 years I've been operating my business. I'm not really a greedy type of guy and I held out years longer than made business sense before outsourcing some of my manufacturing to China, but ultimately, my customers just wanted lower and lower prices and didn't give one. single. fata. about "Canadian-made" "buying local" "supporting Calgary jobs" etc. I don't even blame them...who doesn't want the best price?

There are only so many levers a business can pull to give people what they want at the prices they want. Out-sourcing isn't just about fat cats wanting to enrich themselves; you can stand on your principles for only so long until you're a principled guy with a shuttered business.

On the executive side of things, the cat's out of the bag on outsourcing white-collar jobs. There's no way it isn't already happening and I'm not sure how much it slows down - and it definitely won't stop - if people go back into the office.

Just look at Ducay's sentiments. That's the type of guy in leadership at a lot of these companies. He doesn't give a fata if working from home gives you a better life. Probably is offended at the notion of you throwing in a load of laundry before your Teams meeting starts. Whether you're in the office or not won't make him value you more. If there's a cheaper option for labour they'll gravitate towards it. At first it'll be for a competitive advantage, but once that ball is rolling down the hill (and I think it already is) every company will be outsourcing everything they can just to stay competitive. That is, there will be no advantage to doing it; only disadvantage to not doing it.

As a consumer, are you going to buy widgets from iggie_oi's at a premium because he's paying more in labour for WFH Calgarians, or would you rather buy the same widget from Ducay because they're less expensive due to him outsourcing labour? You'll all buy Ducay's, don't lie.

So in the meantime, I think people should enjoy WFH to the extent they can. You're not going to win this battle either way, so you should get what you can out of it while you can.

Individuals going for the cheaper option isn’t a rebuttal to anything I’ve said. You won’t find me blaming an individual for buying what they can afford. Life’s hard.

I don’t understand the almost gleeful mentality of “fine, good luck on the unemployment line! We can find cheap labour overseas!”. Keeping rampant capitalism in check is the job of our governments. Not individual buying decisions.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by Sliver

On the executive side of things, the cat's out of the bag on outsourcing white-collar jobs. There's no way it isn't already happening and I'm not sure how much it slows down - and it definitely won't stop - if people go back into the office.
.

My counterpart on a project being executed in Alberta is sitting in India. He's on the client side. First crack at this and although it's not perfect, it's not failing. Insert "it's happening" gif.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Looch City

This is true, WFH will eventually lead to the downfall of western and Canadian civilization as we know it!

All because of this brand new thing called...outsourcing. Which is completely new and not currently done at all.

God forbid we have some work/life balance in North America. People are obsessed with work and appeasing to their superiors.

I'm less worried about outsourcing to cheaper labour and going straight to AI/ML at this point. That is what will put a lot of us white collar folks out of work at some point. I work in finance and all of our processes and reporting could easily be done with properly implemented AI. We could probably go from 50 people to a handful who just monitor and sign off on results from the AI systems.

I actually do digital transformation and work on a lot of process optimization so that people are not spending so much time on manual processes and can focus on things that actually improved our operations and it is very interesting to hear initial reactions when I start asking about workflows and I tell them that I am looking to automate various tasks. Many times they think I am coming to take away their job.

[PsYcNeT]

Imagine thinking you can't collaborate via chat in Teams/Slack efficiently.

Boomer mindset.

[Looch City]

Not to mention how much easier virtual/call-in meetings have become.

Seriously, Teams integration has been amazing. Sharing screens, chatting, setting up live events, audience participation.

Remember the days of literal “conference calls” and trying to see who’s all on the phone? Dial 2847 and use the password for the meeting room! Make sure you have the correct cable to plug in and share your screen, oh but the people on the phone can’t see it. Make sure to send it to them beforehand please.

So much easier now.

[PsYcNeT]

My life is infinitely better not having to use a ####ing Polycom ever again.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

You’re just trying to get both he and Locke all riled up, aren’t you Pepsi?

Yeah, sorry, my bad. Just trying to figure out if this is someone whose entire profession is actively being replaced by an app desperately trying believe they still have a job because they work in an office and not because change moves slow enough that you can see it happen.

Honestly, I don’t know what I would do if I believed my value was tied to my appearance in an office, and not the quality or type of work I do. That’s depressing as hell.

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

It’s funny, the trope about meetings for a solid decade while they were mostly done in person was that they were almost all useless and inefficient wastes of time. Now they are fondly looked back upon as the only possible way to collaborate.

“How can we POSSIBLY comes to a SOLUTION for this AGENDA when I can’t even SMELL everybody!???”

The revisionist history around meetings probably comes from technological luddites who still to this day can’t figure out where their camera is, tbh. These people were wastes of time during in-person meetings as well.

[TheIronMaiden]

I prefer to work in person, but I understand that work from home is virtually the same thing from a productivity standpoint. There is a huge benefit to being a likeable person who is easy to work with that does not translate the same through a screen.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

It’s funny, the trope about meetings for a solid decade while they were mostly done in person was that they were almost all useless and inefficient wastes of time. Now they are fondly looked back upon as the only possible way to collaborate.

It’s interesting watching people whose only apparent skill is managing other people try and prove their value by forcing inefficiency back on the workforce. We need to collaborate and create in person (aka gossip and chit chat) or else all is lost, all jobs will be sent to India, and the entire North American way of life will die. Do you want Mad Max? That’s how you get Mad Max.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Slava

And don't even get me started on the inefficacy of Zoom/Teams for a board/committee meeting. It's a stop-gap that works when there is no better option...but the better option is a face-to-face.

I'd say the opposite. Meetings are far better and more efficient on Zoom than they were in person. Before we would have multiple meetings a year that were 60% in attendance for the winter months because people were away. One guy would always try to haplessly call in. Always a mess. When more people were in, so much wasted time with small talk and other crap. Constant jokes and snipes. Can't see the figures on the screen. Even worse was the bs of somebody being quiet all meeting, then afterwards cornering somebody on the project to start giving their opinions on it then.

Once things were moved to Zoom, or at least combos with a good conference setup. Attendance up so things can actually get resolved. Chair has more control to move things along, presentations go smoother, and things stay on point better, and all the 'politicking' that would go on before and after would die away which wastes less time for anybody involved on the relevant projects.

Less bull#### with board and committee meetings as a result of more Zoom is a huge plus from me. Now when I hear that the meeting will be 'in-person' I know it's because people just want to shoot the #### and find an excuse to get some free food and drinks as part of it. Always the least productive meetings we have.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Individuals going for the cheaper option isn’t a rebuttal to anything I’ve said. You won’t find me blaming an individual for buying what they can afford. Life’s hard.

I don’t understand the almost gleeful mentality of “fine, good luck on the unemployment line! We can find cheap labour overseas!”. Keeping rampant capitalism in check is the job of our governments. Not individual buying decisions.

Slavs does raise a good point though. What is there, truly, that stops employers from sourcing global candidates for local jobs under the guise of ‘remote work’? I have very little (as in, none what so ever) that the government has desire or competence to enforce hiring Canadians for Canadian jobs. Hell, look at the absolute disgrace that is our TFW program, and those are real in-person jobs.

I don’t begrudge, per se, an individual who ignores the bigger picture in their purchasing. I mean, I do, because somehow everyone can afford a brand new truck and big ass TV but balks when union-made or local goods are priced, but whatever.

Collectively, we need to demand that companies operating in Canada, doing business with Canadians and using Canadian resources employ Canadians. Doesn’t matter whether their ass is in Victoria or but-fuk Manitoba. Canadian operations, Canadian workers.

There will be some big business pushback described as anti-racism or some other bull####, but it’s tue only way I can see to keep remote work from being outsourced as rapidly as possible.