[PGT] Flames Lose 2-0 to Leafs

[combustiblefuel]

I got very little hope for this season. No way they go deep in a playoff run.

Sutter being hired isn't neccesarily a sign they want a cup run this year. I think like in moat his hires he's here to evaluate and try for the cup but ultimately he is here this year to weed out the garden and suggest what is need for the next year .

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by bigpete

An Iginla in his prime would look good on this team right now. That's what we need. Are there any of those lying around?

Prime Iginla, combined with prime MacInnis, with a dash of prime Gilmour, and then we can scare some people.

[Huntingwhale]

Wasn't expecting the Flames to take both games from TO. I'll take the split and the 4-2 record. But the last 3 games have looked pretty bad. Sutter was never going to be the magical elixir to fix everything. I will honestly be surprised if we make the playoffs and wouldn't surprise me to see this team coast the rest of the way no matter how bad Sutter barks. The team lacks many attributes of a solid group. Most of all a core that gets worse seemingly every week.

We should all also brace ourselves for less comeback wins. While it might be harder to score in the Flames now, it's also going to be more difficult to generate offence. In '06 the Flames won the division by being the best defensive team in the league. They were also 3rd worst in offence. I remember plenty of talk about where the offence was ever going to come from, lack of scoring, etc. The Kings were always good defensively but never powerhouse offensive teams other than 1 season. Those are staple of a lot of Sutter teams.

I suppose that's a recipe for more wins when you look at the overall picture. But I knew this game was hopeless as soon as they went down 2-0.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Jack Campbell was the best player on the ice. Not saying Calgary deserved to win, but ....

Jack Campbell's crest was the best player on the ice, and even that is debatable.

[WhiteTiger]

Ugh. Ah, well. Can't win 'em all

[calgaryred]

Move on two games in Ottawa up next win those and the Sutter season goes to 6-2

[Britflamesfan]

To me it’s not about winning at the moment it is more about the players and how they perform for the next week or two. JG looks utterly lost out on the ice and as we already knew he is incapable of dealing with a more physical game. He needs to be traded urgently whilst he still has some decent trade value. I don’t know what is up with chucky I just know I am not paying 9m for him. He probably needs to go as well. Mony is trying hard but again is looking lost, move him as well. You should if you are a half decent GM be able to get some nice returns for them and reset the team. That’s if of course you trust the current GM which I don’t.

[Gaskal]

They lost the last of a 3 in 4 nights deal against a top team in the division who is very desperate to get their season back on track, so at most I was hoping for a loser point anyway.

It's not time for doom-and-gloom and blow it up just yet. They just need to sweep the next two against Ottawa.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

The decline of Monahan and Gaudreau has been nothing short of spectacular.

During the 2015 playoffs, and even after the loss to Anaheim I remember thinking we could win a cup with these guys.

JG was amazing. Remember the home game against Anaheim where he tied it with the goalie pulled and Backlund scored in OT?

That was almost five years ago. Look where we are now.

I remember them torching teams in the first half of the 2016/17 season when Ferland was on the wing. They were legitimately one of the most dominant lines in the league for about a 2-3 month stretch before the All-star break.

Then there was 2018/19, with Lindholm on the wing. Johnny finished top 10 in scoring with 99 points.

Now they can barely generate at 5-on-5 it seems, and even the powerplay looks putrid. Strictly from an offensive standpoint, the drop-off has been staggering.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

For what it’s worth, the girlfriend watched with me tonight and said “these guys look much better than they did last time I watched” which was pre Sutter.

So at least there’s that

Are you sure she wasn't swiping through tinder?

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

I remember them torching teams in the first half of the 2016/17 season when Ferland was on the wing. They were legitimately one of the most dominant lines in the league for about a 2-3 month stretch before the All-star break.

Then there was 2018/19, with Lindholm on the wing. Johnny finished top 10 in scoring with 99 points.

Now they can barely generate at 5-on-5 it seems, and even the powerplay looks putrid. Strictly from an offensive standpoint, the drop-off has been staggering.

All these things lead me to believe they will bounce back.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Do any of us believe that this team can actually win with Monahan and Gaudreau playing the roles they do/accounting for as much of the cap as they do?

I just...don’t. I don’t think they can elevate beyond what they’ve shown thus far in their careers, and I even say that while liking both players a good deal. I just don’t think they can get it done.

(I have similar thoughts towards Backlund and Giordano)

It is absolutely fair to wonder about whether the team can win with Monahan and Gaudreau in their current roles, but their cap-hits are not a problem. Not at all. They carry the #52 and #60 highest cap hits among forwards in the League.

[Jeff Lebowski]

A repeat post of what I've written elsewhere but the thinking is:

-CGY played it's best hockey all year in that 2 game MTL series (Darryl's first games). Pace of play was elevated and there was a confident team pinching, getting pucks on forecheck, directing pucks on net etc. Matchups were controllable but CGY was executing.

Since then CGY pace of play has decreased but teams have countered the CGY forecheck with team play of TOR (as Darryl said in post game) and puck handling of Mike Smith. When the neutral zone and forecheck game is non existent CGY plays the 3/4 game Tanev was talking about - battle hard to get it out and then have the opponent come downhill at you again.

Ideally you have a good team when top 6 F and top 4 D (plus G) are consistently good - and seperate to a great team when other players chip in more often than not. Unfortunately the consistently good players (including G) for CGY have been just Tanev and Hanifin.

50% of top 6 F (Gaudreau - Monahan - Ritchie) are playing too slowly.
50% of top 4 D (Giordano - Andersson) are playing too slowly.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Ritchie
I agreed with Darryl's assessment of needing to get some size, speed and power on the line but it feels like Gaudreau is still being asked (by his linemates) to drive the line: carry the puck, generate offense and Gaudreau is not controlling the play crucially when he is in open ice - he slows it down but is not finding guys in dangerous areas. Conversely Ritchie is not able to make plays in open ice lately to find Gaudreau and Monahan. Monahan and Ritchie have not been able to start any kind of cycle game down low and that, to me, is the key for this line to have success - Ritchie and Monahan have to be able to physically control the puck below the goal line and start the cycle where they can spot Gaudreau and then he can distribute.

Try: Tkachuk - Lindholm - Gaudreau
Tkachuk and Lindholm are cycle players. Having 2 guys strong in the cycle on each line is, imo, the key to getting sustained pressure within Darryl's framework. Furthermore Lindholm, Tkachuk and Gaudreau are the three most skilled forwards on the team. To me they can make great plays in small areas: when any of them give the puck away to the others, they know they will get the puck back (quickly). Lindholm has the ability to carry the puck himself (like a Kopitar) plus, with his shot, he should be getting 5 shots a game minimum.

Tkachuk and Gaudreau thrive in a quick puck movement style where some creativity (smarts, poise and skill with puck) in the zone allows them to be at their most dangerous.

Tkachuk and Lindholm are very good defensively and on breakouts they will be able to use Gaudreau to his maximum benefit (make some plays) or they can lug the puck and start a cycle.

Try: Bennett - Monahan - Dube/Leivo
Straight line, Canadian hockey. I would even see if Dube can handle the middle if you have speedy opponents but if you want a line to throw out that will quickly get the puck deep and have the speed and power to get there. Bludgeon the opponent's d with this line plus have a shot volume mentality - I think this could be a very irritating line to play against.

Bennett will have to step up his game but on this line he will just have to play simple, direct hockey and he has shown chemistry with Dube to produce this kind of hockey. This is the kind of line you put out there when you want a reset for team play: simple, fast, hard, direct hockey that can score. Bennett being unleashed to physically light up the opponent RD is a valuable weapon in this division imo.

Try: Lucic - Ryan - Ritchie
This is not meant to be some punishment or indictment of these guys. I like them all but want to maximize their good plays and minimize the sometimes poor puck plays by having them play 12 mins a game in a very hard hitting focused game. Ryan plays well with both guys and just knows how to use heavy guys effectively. Crucially this line can create emotion and energy plus chip in offensively and take care of any issues.

Try: Mangiapane - Backlund - Leivo/Dube
It's not that I think Lucic - Backlund were bad but to my eye, I see Backlund rolling the puck into Lucic's corner as the go to play. Again it's not a bad tactic but I just think Backlund is capable (and more effective) in making better plays and creating more. I think this trio will spend more time in the offensive zone and Backlund would be able to set up Leivo's shot instead of rolling the puck into a corner.

Try: Gio - Tanev
The numbers don't lie and Tanev is playing phenomenal. He gaps up really well and just defends so smartly. I noticed him skating the puck up (to dump in like Doughty did) a lot during the MTL series so his mobility is excellent. CGY D corps needs to get to pucks first so they can turn it up ice faster and this, to me, has been the challenge for the other pairings not including Tanev - Hanifin.

Try: Hanifin - Andersson
could write the same thing for Rasmus as for Gio. Andersson transitions pucks very well so if Hanifin is getting there first and giving to Rasmus that is going to lead to offensive zone time and catching teams with odd man attacks. It seems Andersson's confidence is lower this year and a return to Hanifin looks to me as just what Rasmus needs to get back to his confident, assertive game.

3rd pair
This is another situation to Andersson. I think you need a guy who can get back to pucks fast and then use Valimaki who can use his smarts to quickly get the puck going in transition. They obviously need to be good with in zone defending but CGY d corps needs to get there first so they can quickly transistion the puck the way Darryl wants. When the puck is in Valimaki's feet near the boards he isn't able to make a little play and it becomes the beach head for the opponent forecheck.

This beach head to forecheck is what is happening to Gio - Andersson: They get tied up and the puck stops moving.

Goalie
I'm happy with both guys but both have had up and down stretches. However if the team can defend faster and harder so to spend less time in their end that will have great benefit to the goalies. Just stay in the net and stop the puck. No need to over play it if the rest of the team is defending fast.

I think Darryl's way of playing can work well with this roster but it needs a little shake up so they can get more just a little more speed to fully roll. CGY just needs to gain a step in their top 6 and top 4.

I think you can approximate the Zetterberg - Datsyuk style of take aways defensively that turn into instant offense. The key is that defensive ability to work in order to steal the puck back. Lindholm (Gaudreau) and Backlund (Mangiapane) can be those guys that get in the kitchen (hands) and take pucks. Then turn and go.

Again, I look at how they played their first 2 games under Darryl and what that looked like. I believe the above tweaks will give that extra 2-5%.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

All these things lead me to believe they will bounce back.

I'm not as optimistic -- from a sample size perspective, they are starting to look more like the exception rather than the rule.

That said, I think they can still be very good contributors with a dynamic player (like Lindholm) on the wing. Indeed, the experiment of plugging someone onto the wing and letting them get carried along by 13 and 23 has been a failure -- clearly the organization was hoping someone like Simon or Leivo could fill that role, but they haven't. Ritchie brings some complementary tools to the table, but he isn't the answer.

Unfortunately, that strategy also involved putting Lindholm at centre with Tkachuk. While they're 1-2 in team scoring, they're not NHL "first line" calibre either.

As a team they're playing better under Sutter, but if they're wanting to do any damage in the playoffs -- assuming of course they make the playoffs -- they will need 13 and 23 leading the charge.

[GioforPM]

Did anyone else notice that it was Ritchie carrying the puck a lot on the Monahan line? Then either crossing the blue line with it and getting stuffed or dumping it when he's supposed to be the chase guy. The play would go - Monahan digs the puck in the D zone, gets it to Gaudreau who would pass to Ritchie up ice. The Ritchie dumps it but Gaudreau was behind or not able to get the puck and Monahan, because he started out deep, is not in on the chase part as well. It's less than an ideal series of events.

I think Monahan and Gaudreau would benefit from a little longer shifts - Sutter has them very disciplined on short shifts, especially Monahan because Gaudreau is typically the guy that stays out to challenge during a line change. But I think Monahan and Gaudreau have always been guys who can be thwarted once or twice on a shift but then can do something on a third try.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

I remember them torching teams in the first half of the 2016/17 season when Ferland was on the wing. They were legitimately one of the most dominant lines in the league for about a 2-3 month stretch before the All-star break.

Then there was 2018/19, with Lindholm on the wing. Johnny finished top 10 in scoring with 99 points.

Now they can barely generate at 5-on-5 it seems, and even the powerplay looks putrid. Strictly from an offensive standpoint, the drop-off has been staggering.

Gaudreau and Monahan have proven over the last 7 years that they need to be a complete line rather than a pair. You can’t just stick any RW there and hope they find success, you need someone who pulls their own weight as well. Sorry to say it, but this organization failed Johnny and Monny. This was one of the better dynamic duos since their arrival and they came into this season with league minimum talent like Brett Ritchie, Josh Leivo, Dominic Simon and Joakim Nordstrom.

They struggled to score 5 on 5, coach was fired and now they’re asked to play a new style of hockey that’ll never suit them. These 2 are all but gone this off season.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

The decline of Monahan and Gaudreau has been nothing short of spectacular.

During the 2015 playoffs, and even after the loss to Anaheim I remember thinking we could win a cup with these guys.

JG was amazing. Remember the home game against Anaheim where he tied it with the goalie pulled and Backlund scored in OT?

That was almost five years ago. Look where we are now.

Team rebuilt too fast. Lot of quick fixes, patchwork, plugging holes. Now they’ve gone all in and there are so many holes to fix they can’t plug holes fast enough on this sinking ship.

For instance, they took their best RW and moved him at center because thought they needed a new #1 center, but now they have a gigantic hole at RW that they have no fix for. They lost Brodie and thought they could promote Andersson to the top pair, but that pairing hasn’t worked out as well as this organization thought it would. Similar thing with Dube who has been good at times, but overall he’s had a very uneven performance this season.

If only they took the more patient route, maybe this team drafts the true RW they’ve always needed for 13 and 23, maybe they find another #1 center, maybe they add another top 4 defenseman, goaltender, who knows.


EDIT: Forgot to mention maybe the 2 worst attempts at plugging holes. James Neal and Troy Brouwer. That’s $10M spent to plug the RW hole, only to find out that they were actually anchors. This team is still paying for it salary wise via buyout and Lucic’s contract. To be fair, Lucic has been good but his contract is still an abomination.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Gaudreau and Monahan have proven over the last 7 years that they need to be a complete line rather than a pair. You can’t just stick any RW there and hope they find success, you need someone who pulls their own weight as well. Sorry to say it, but this organization failed Johnny and Monny. This was one of the better dynamic duos since their arrival and they came into this season with league minimum talent like Brett Ritchie, Josh Leivo, Dominic Simon and Joakim Nordstrom.

They struggled to score 5 on 5, coach was fired and now they’re asked to play a new style of hockey that’ll never suit them. These 2 are all but gone this off season.

but if you have a true dynamic duo, you should be able to plug in almost anyone.
works for every other dynamic duo in the league.

[flamesrule_kipper34]

I mean this sincerely, but can people stop saying "sweep against Ottawa"?

I know we have Sutter now but this team has struggled mightily against them. One win tomorrow night is what I'm looking for, asking for a sweep seems way too lofty and assumptive at this stage.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

but if you have a true dynamic duo, you should be able to plug in almost anyone.
works for every other dynamic duo in the league.

Every other dynamic duo in the league with the exception of the super elite have better options as the third player on the line. Only Patrick Kane, Crosby and McDavid have to carry anyone close to the level of player that the Flames often shove on Monahan’s RW. The other dynamic duos (scheifele and wheeler, Matthews and Marner, MacKinnon and Landeskog) play with players who are significantly better than Ritchie, Simon or Leivo.