63 Canadians killed after civilian airliner shot down.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Oh I do, I just recognise that is exists because we in the UK gave away a country that wasn't ours to give away and screwed over hundreds of thousands of the locals in the process, I accept that if I was a 21 year old unemployed Arab kid living in a slum on the West Bank or Gaza listening to my Grandfather talking about the little farm they used to have until '49 or 67 or 72 I would feel angry.

In a hundred years or so Palestinians will probably not be as angry but I understand why they are now, it is exactly the same as why my native foster kids feel angry, we have everything and for the most part they have nothing of a country that we took from them.

The Balfour declaration didn't create any refugees. It divided to the area based on who was living there at the time. The subsequent failed invasion of Israel created the refugees.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

The opinion that the nation of Israel being established where it was and how it was does not inherently make you an anti-Semite.

Yes it is. A light shade of anti-Semitism, but it is all the same.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Azure

I also didn't expect to come into this thread and finally read what I know AFC has been thinking all along.

Israel is not legitimate, has no right to their 'ground', and that the West is responsible for everything that has gone wrong in the Middle East in the last 50 years.

I mean, I always suspected as much, but finally we see it come to light.

Not surprising at all.

I think Israel is wholly legitimate, I just think that the legitimacy is bestowed on it by its ability to smack the crap out of its neighbours, like every country in the world, and if in the future it loses that ability then it will cease to exist.

Do I think Israel or Canada has a moral right to exist on land clearly taken from some other peoples by force, no, there is no morality involved, its just the age old right of conquest, but the right of conquest is a right.

[Looch City]

I'm hoping Canada doesn't enact any sanctions that would affect the general population. The way I look at it is all the Iranian Canadians that passed away were in Iran to visit family and friends. Sanctions that hurt the general population would be affecting those same families of the deceased. Basically another gut punch for them.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Sliver

How on God's grean earth can you be having trouble with the story coming out of Iran? They are explicitly taking responsibility, expressing deep remorse, explaining the factors that led up to the incident and it sounds like they'll be making efforts toward compensation.

Additionally, all of that lines up with what we all witnessed and it's understandable if you have the most basic grasp of how things can go accidentally wrong in a complex, high-stress situation.

At this point, there is literally nothing confusing about the situation and I'm impressed and grateful for how they're relaying information to the rest of the world.

What Iran is doing is spinning faster then a spin cycle in a washer. Until there is a full and open investigation with a proper report released that includes free access to the operators that fired, the commander that set up the air defense, data from the battery etc. Yeah this story is completely incomplete for me.


Lets see how Iran actually cooperates over the next few days and weeks.


Its great that they admitted to firing, but its far from a complete story, and yeah, we should be a bit grateful that after the denials, lies blaming boeing etc that they finally admitted that they did shoot the airliner down.


But the whole story to me about confusing the jet liner with a cruise missile rings hollow right now.

[FlamesAddiction]

In my opinion, the aggressor is at least partly responsible for the aftermath and collateral damage in armed conflict.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

I'm hoping Canada doesn't enact any sanctions that would affect the general population. The way I look at it is all the Iranian Canadians that passed away were in Iran to visit family and friends. Sanctions that hurt the general population would be affecting those same families of the deceased. Basically another gut punch for them.

There really are no more sanctions that Canada can really enact that would effect the normal people of Iran. The only real options that are left are actions that target individual leaders within that government.


We can't even take steps to declare things like the Revolutionary Guards as a terrorist organization, we did that a few years ago.


The only thing that we can offer is some kind of normalizing of communications, but the Iranians have a long ways to go before that can happen.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yes it is. A light shade of anti-Semitism, but it is all the same.

Explain how.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

The Balfour declaration didn't create any refugees. It divided to the area based on who was living there at the time. The subsequent failed invasion of Israel created the refugees.

Wars always create refugees, and those that become refugees almost always have nothing to do with starting the wars.

My position here, incidently, is not to blame Israel for the wars or the refugees or even the resentment it's existence has created, despite everyone's desire to make it about that.

My point was we should recognise the resentment isn't random and we caused it and that effects our ability to influence events in the region.

That as the 'west' particularly the US and UK, we cannot play the role of 'good guys' in the region, that we may not be able to do anything about our history in the region but by attempting to pretend we have done nothing wrong, that we haven't spent the last century effing the region sideways for our own benefit, stealing resources and land whenever we wanted something, usually by the installation of some thug puppet government that we supported.

All I am trying to point out is we aren't the 'good guys' in the middle east, that we are the cause of most of the regions current issues, now the region would clearly have its own different issues even if we hadn't effed with it for a century, but the issues it has now are the issues we created because we did eff with it for a century.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yes it is. A light shade of anti-Semitism, but it is all the same.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I am legitamatly interested what makes you think this?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

There are no goalposts anymore.

I'm at a loss to understand what you mean, are you denying that the whole of our Country was taken from the first nations over the last couple of centuries?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by 81MC

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I am legitamatly interested what makes you think this?

Peter is conflating Zionism with Jews again.

Also watch out guys, if you say "Israel" three times in a thread you summon Candyman NW

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by peter12

The levels of leniency in this thread for a revolutionary jihadist regime which has wrecked untold damage to the treasure and lives of our citizens and allies is truly disgusting.

Watches Chernobyl leaves disgusted. Listens to Iran praises transparency.

Ridiculous.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Wars always create refugees, and those that become refugees almost always have nothing to do with starting the wars.

My position here, incidently, is not to blame Israel for the wars or the refugees or even the resentment it's existence has created, despite everyone's desire to make it about that.

My point was we should recognise the resentment isn't random and we caused it and that effects our ability to influence events in the region.

That as the 'west' particularly the US and UK, we cannot play the role of 'good guys' in the region, that we may not be able to do anything about our history in the region but by attempting to pretend we have done nothing wrong, that we haven't spent the last century effing the region sideways for our own benefit, stealing resources and land whenever we wanted something, usually by the installation of some thug puppet government that we supported.

All I am trying to point out is we aren't the 'good guys' in the middle east, that we are the cause of most of the regions current issues, now the region would clearly have its own different issues even if we hadn't effed with it for a century, but the issues it has now are the issues we created because we did eff with it for a century.

There are rarely true good guys in conflicts been states. It's a falsehood to attribute emotions to states. States have interests, not emotions.

The major issues with Iran in the region relate to the Sunni and #####e conflict. Israel is just a distraction and scape goat that the Iranian government uses, as they attemp to spread influence via proxy armies.

Israel, despite the vastly disproportionate amount of press and attention it gets, has very little to do with the conflict, including in terms of land mass, scale, and casualties. For example, the total amount of casualties in the entire Israel/Palestinian conflict, including both sides, is about 30,000, over the course of 70+ years of conflict. Several times that many die every year in Iran's proxy war in Syria, alone.

You position is also somewhat dubious, as shifting attention to Israel in a discussion about Iran shooting down an airliner suggests that you are indeed attempting to blame Israel.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

The levels of leniency in this thread for a revolutionary jihadist regime which has wrecked untold damage to the treasure and lives of our citizens and allies is truly disgusting.

The US has been responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Civilians in the region due to consequences of their 'war on terror', a death toll beyond anything Iran could ever dream of inflicting, included in that death toll are the 4 Canadian soldiers they dropped a bomb on by accident, accidents happen when you start wars.

The only distinction I draw between the repugnant actions of the US and Iran is that generally the Iranians have tended to restrict their repugnancy to actions in their immediate region, they haven't invaded Mexico or Columbia in order to enforce its philosophy on them, unlike the US, now I am a realist, I have no doubt they would if they could, but they cant, as of now the US is the only country that has the ability to blunder around the world destabylizing regions and causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands in order to pursue its policy aims.

Unlike you I do not see the US or Iran as being any better or worse than each other morally, I do see the US has killed massively more though by dint of its massively greater strength and desire to tell other countries what to do

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by peter12

The levels of leniency in this thread for a revolutionary jihadist regime which has wrecked untold damage to the treasure and lives of our citizens and allies is truly disgusting.

It would be fantastic if you could show some nuanced thinking at any point.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

There are rarely true good guys in conflicts been states. It's a falsehood to attribute emotions to states. States have interests, not emotions.

The major issues with Iran in the region relate to the Sunni and #####e conflict. Israel is just a distraction and scape goat that the Iranian government uses, as they attemp to spread influence via proxy armies.

Israel, despite the vastly disproportionate amount of press and attention it gets, has very little to do with the conflict, including in terms of land mass, scale, and casualties. For example, the total amount of casualties in the entire Israel/Palestinian conflict, including both sides, is about 30,000, over the course of 70+ years of conflict. Several times that many die every year in Iran's proxy war in Syria, alone.

You position is also somewhat dubious, as shifting attention to Israel in a discussion about Iran shooting down an airliner suggests that you are indeed attempting to blame Israel.

It was probably foolish of me to bring Israel up, my point was only to ask those that support the 'west' unreservedly and see us as 'good' and them as 'bad' to at least try and see why the region doesn't welcome our involvement, why young muslim kids all over the world increasingly see us as the enemy of their faith.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

It was probably foolish of me to bring Israel up, my point was only to ask those that support the 'west' unreservedly and see us as 'good' and them as 'bad' to at least try and see why the region doesn't welcome our involvement, why young muslim kids all over the world increasingly see us as the enemy of their faith.

Iran's current regime was founded on the position that the West was the enemy. The key position of the revolution was a rejection of the West and Western values. If anything the position against the West is softening in the region. Young people are increasingly pro Western. People are increasingly rejecting the traditional religious lifestyle in favor of a more Western one.

The only thing stopping another revolution in Iran is the army gunning down protestors and the religious police.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

Iran's current regime was founded on the position that the West was the enemy. The key position of the revolution was a rejection of the West and Western values. If anything the position against the West is softening in the region. Young people are increasingly pro Western. People are increasingly rejecting the traditional religious lifestyle in favor of a more Western one.

The only thing stopping another revolution in Iran is the army gunning down protestors and the religious police.

Iran's current regime was founded when the west was the enemy in some ways we still are, if we don't accept this then we will never stop screwing things up in the region.

And that isn't to say the Iranian regime isn't repugnant.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

What Iran is doing is spinning faster then a spin cycle in a washer. Until there is a full and open investigation with a proper report released that includes free access to the operators that fired, the commander that set up the air defense, data from the battery etc. Yeah this story is completely incomplete for me.


Lets see how Iran actually cooperates over the next few days and weeks.


Its great that they admitted to firing, but its far from a complete story, and yeah, we should be a bit grateful that after the denials, lies blaming boeing etc that they finally admitted that they did shoot the airliner down.


But the whole story to me about confusing the jet liner with a cruise missile rings hollow right now.

This is no different to The American's behaviour when they shot 655 down.