63 Canadians killed after civilian airliner shot down.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

No they weren't, but the guys sitting in that truck were probably expecting they would die when the Americans hit back. Very first thing the US would blow up with cruise missiles or stealth bombers would be the air defence system. In that context you can see why something like this can happen.

There have been a lot of close calls through history, especially during the Cold War.

I'm glad the people involved in this situations weren't complete frickin' morons like the Iranians that were involved here.

[Azure]

I also didn't expect to come into this thread and finally read what I know AFC has been thinking all along.

Israel is not legitimate, has no right to their 'ground', and that the West is responsible for everything that has gone wrong in the Middle East in the last 50 years.

I mean, I always suspected as much, but finally we see it come to light.

Not surprising at all.

[Baron von Kriterium]

Iran Front Page journalist Reza Khaasteh translated on Twitter:

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr: I wish I was dead and such an incident hadn't happened. We in IRGC accept all the responsibility, and are ready to implement any decision made by the Establishment.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr: I was in the country's west following attacks on US base in Iraq when I heard the news. We sacrificed our lives for our people for a lifetime, and now we're trading our reputation with God (disgracing ourselves) and appear in front of the camera to explain.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr says we had requested the establishment of a no-fly zone given the war situation. But it was not approved for certain considerations.

Revision: IRGC Aerospace Cmdr says Air Defence operator sent a message to his commanders; but after he didn't receive any response for 10 seconds, he decided to shoot it down.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr: I informed Iranian officials on Wednesday morning, and said we speculate our own passenger plane has been shot down. But the General Staff of Armed Forces quarantined all those who knew about it, and decided to declare it later.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr.: The officials, including Aviation authorities, who kept denying the missile hit, are not guilty. They made those remarks based on what they knew. We are to blame for everything.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr.: We were at that time ready for an all-out war with US. We had reports of cruise missiles fired at Iran. It was an individual's error that caused this tragedy.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Azure

There have been a lot of close calls through history, especially during the Cold War.

I'm glad the people involved in this situations weren't complete frickin' morons like the Iranians that were involved here.

There have been several terrifying close calls in the cold war. Like 10 seconds to midnight type of stuff. The thing that saved us were well trained people going around technology.


I'm still having a ton of trouble with the current story coming out of Iran. None of it makes any sense to me, and involves in their story not only technology failures, but blundering levels of stupidity.



I'm not a conspiracy theory guy, but was there anything out of the ordinary on the manifest for that plane?

[Baron von Kriterium]

A leak (UKR) from the Ukrainian side of the investigation gives some hints on how the plane came down (machine translation):

"We took up the restoration of fragments of the aircraft. It was necessary to determine how these pieces of metal dumped into a huge pile should be interconnected.

The intrigue remained until late. The fact is that there were no damages on most parts of the aircraft. There was no explosion and no fire in the engines or on the wings. It is possible that the plane could fall almost intact. Unlike the remains of the Boeing MN-17, there were no immediately visible signs of defeat by combat elements on the fuselage and wings. A lot of damage to the case is the result of a fall. But after laying out all the fragments of the aircraft, it became obvious that the bottom of the cockpit was missing.

Among the wreckage, fragments of the upper part of the cabin were identified. And then the find finally took place - at about 22 hours. On a fragment of the cockpit, we found holes in the damaging elements of the warhead of the rocket, which pierced the skin. We found! For the first time, direct evidence appeared in this case, which made it possible to prove what caused the death of the aircraft. For us it was a turning point.

So what we now understand:

Russian anti-aircraft missile "Tor" hit the liner in the lower part of the front of the fuselage, directly under the cockpit.

A direct hit and the cabin flared up inside. Instantly turned off the transponder of the aircraft, which gives signals about the flight. Instantly lost contact.

While there is no data, one or two missiles have caused such damage. It is possible that the second missile also hit the fuselage from below close to the first. But all this remains to be clarified.

We continue to lay out fragments of the aircraft until the complete collection of all surviving parts.

We expect that today we will gain access to all objective control data.

In cooperation with Iranian colleagues, we get the impression that those who contact us sincerely want to help themselves and figure it out, in general, there are no problems. Let's hope that such a mood and working contacts remain with us now."

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Baron von Kriterium

Iran Front Page journalist Reza Khaasteh translated on Twitter:

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr: I wish I was dead and such an incident hadn't happened. We in IRGC accept all the responsibility, and are ready to implement any decision made by the Establishment.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr: I was in the country's west following attacks on US base in Iraq when I heard the news. We sacrificed our lives for our people for a lifetime, and now we're trading our reputation with God (disgracing ourselves) and appear in front of the camera to explain.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr says we had requested the establishment of a no-fly zone given the war situation. But it was not approved for certain considerations.

Revision: IRGC Aerospace Cmdr says Air Defence operator sent a message to his commanders; but after he didn't receive any response for 10 seconds, he decided to shoot it down.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr: I informed Iranian officials on Wednesday morning, and said we speculate our own passenger plane has been shot down. But the General Staff of Armed Forces quarantined all those who knew about it, and decided to declare it later.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr.: The officials, including Aviation authorities, who kept denying the missile hit, are not guilty. They made those remarks based on what they knew. We are to blame for everything.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr.: We were at that time ready for an all-out war with US. We had reports of cruise missiles fired at Iran. It was an individual's error that caused this tragedy.

Does anyone even believe that this guy is anything more than the regime's chosen fall guy?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There have been several terrifying close calls in the cold war. Like 10 seconds to midnight type of stuff. The thing that saved us were well trained people going around technology.


I'm still having a ton of trouble with the current story coming out of Iran. None of it makes any sense to me, and involves in their story not only technology failures, but blundering levels of stupidity.



I'm not a conspiracy theory guy, but was there anything out of the ordinary on the manifest for that plane?

First Iran comes out and deny's everything and says the West and every other country with intelligence sources that claimed it was shot down is dumb and stupid for saying so.

Then a couple days later, and rather conveniently, some military guy comes out and says 'oh I messed up and I am so sorry for it.'

The incompetence is strong within that government.

[CaptainCrunch]

Some private and probably some junior officer will take a bullet in the next for the good of the government over there.


The Generals and government will protect themselves.



Whoever set up their air defense, and whoever allowed the airport to continue to operate while Iran was launching missiles should be getting a blindfold and cigarette choice.



Its important that everyone involved is allowed to be interviewed and every piece of evidence and every kb of data from the black box, the air defense battery and communication logs is handed over un obstructed.


Justin has to have a no compromise point of view on those deliveries as well as compensation and a official and open apology not some tweet with a emoji in it.

[burn_this_city]

I don't think the black boxes will yield anything since it sounds like the missile hit the cockpit.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Azure

I also didn't expect to come into this thread and finally read what I know AFC has been thinking all along.

Israel is not legitimate, has no right to their 'ground', and that the West is responsible for everything that has gone wrong in the Middle East in the last 50 years.

I mean, I always suspected as much, but finally we see it come to light.

Not surprising at all.

The opinion that the nation of Israel being established where it was and how it was does not inherently make you an anti-Semite.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I don't think the black boxes will yield anything since it sounds like the missile hit the cockpit.

Possibly not, but the black box that they did show looked intact. I would expect that the cockpit voice recorder won't show anything at that point if the cockpit was hit. But the two black boxes are in different parts of the plane one in the tail and one up front I think, so they would still yield key data.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There have been several terrifying close calls in the cold war. Like 10 seconds to midnight type of stuff. The thing that saved us were well trained people going around technology.

I'm still having a ton of trouble with the current story coming out of Iran. None of it makes any sense to me, and involves in their story not only technology failures, but blundering levels of stupidity.

I'm not a conspiracy theory guy, but was there anything out of the ordinary on the manifest for that plane?

How on God's grean earth can you be having trouble with the story coming out of Iran? They are explicitly taking responsibility, expressing deep remorse, explaining the factors that led up to the incident and it sounds like they'll be making efforts toward compensation.

Additionally, all of that lines up with what we all witnessed and it's understandable if you have the most basic grasp of how things can go accidentally wrong in a complex, high-stress situation.

At this point, there is literally nothing confusing about the situation and I'm impressed and grateful for how they're relaying information to the rest of the world.

[Azure]

You're impressed by the fact that they first completely denied shooting it down and then a few days later turned around and had a convenient fall guy who said made a mistake and was really sorry?

[peter12]

The levels of leniency in this thread for a revolutionary jihadist regime which has wrecked untold damage to the treasure and lives of our citizens and allies is truly disgusting.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by peter12

The levels of leniency in this thread for a revolutionary jihadist regime which has wrecked untold damage to the treasure and lives of our citizens and allies is truly disgusting.

Yes, while they're a revolutionary jihadist regime to you, they're humans who happened to be born in a different county to me. They were understandably in a state of high alert after the assassination by missile of a military general. Accidents happen in these situations. Restitution is owed, but acknowledgement of the accident, an explanation of how it happened, and genuine remorse is the best way to begin the path of moving forward.

I'm not concerned with their take from three days ago. I'm looking at what they're saying now. They're not a boogie man. Some poor young soldier fataed up.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by peter12

The levels of leniency in this thread for a revolutionary jihadist regime which has wrecked untold damage to the treasure and lives of our citizens and allies is truly disgusting.

It's complicated. I don't think anyone is showing leniency for their past damage. However, it's nice for once that our enemy admits their mistakes. Humility and honesty for mistakes often leads to an element of respect and healing...particularly as it pertains to international affairs.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by peter12

The levels of leniency in this thread for a revolutionary jihadist regime which has wrecked untold damage to the treasure and lives of our citizens and allies is truly disgusting.

I don't see any real leniency here. You seem to be conflating grudging respect for the fact they actually owned this to feeling sorry for them. Some of us have the ability to separate the average citizenry and rank and file soldier from the axis of evil meme.

[Patek23]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

It seemed both sides were trying to play fake tough guys for various motives. They played a dangerous game where things like this can happen.

If a couple testosterone fueled kids played a game of chicken and both peeled off, and one careened through a bunch of pedestrians ... does it really matter which one kills all the people?

Yes.....


There is some really baffling mental gymnastics going on is this thread LOL oh boy.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by icecube

That line of thinking ought to work for everything. I carjack you and take the car by force. It’s mine and I get to keep it unless someone can take it back. We should teach our kids that might is right too. Why expect anything to be given back when it was stolen?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I take it then you are moving back to Europe and leaving all your possesion's to which ever first nation is closest to you (assuming you aren't first nations) and whose stolen land you live on?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I take it then you are moving back to Europe and leaving all your possesion's to which ever first nation is closest to you (assuming you aren't first nations) and whose stolen land you live on?

There are no goalposts anymore.