Bill Peters' open apology to Treliving. UPD: Aliu responds

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This is obvious bull####. Of course OK Boomer is ageist - it's a rhetorical tool used to instantly discount a person's opinion based on when they wre born, and cast that person as someone worth mocking and not taking seriously. It's mildly obnoxious. It is generally used deliberately to be mildly obnoxious, in order to provoke a reaction and then laugh at the person for getting angry. Trolling, basically. And "mildly obnoxious" is very obviously not comparable to using the N word.

It might have been Trevor Noah who said this recently, but it sums it up: if you're debating the relative badness of two words, and you won't even say one of them, that's the worse word.

I believe it was John Mulaney - great way to sum it up though.

[Royle9]

"apparently" Friedman just confirmed that Peter's has left the Flames organization.
Didn't catch it myself.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Makarov

The Flames must feel tremendous pressure to conclude their investigation and resolve this matter one way or another (well, I think there really is only one way to resolve it at this point) before their home game on Saturday night.

I think the Flames goal has to be getting rid of Peters while paying him as little as possible and potentially save the owners a few million bucks. If that takes past Saturday then so be it. I am sure the players will be told (if they haven’t already) that Peters is done and Ward will be the guy

[rhino]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The way boomer is used in "OK boomer" is absolutely a slur. A rather cringy one that reflects far more on the person using it than it does the target, but a slur none the less.

Also, I'd like to congratulate psynet for once again derailing a thread with his habitual drive by troll post.

We really are not comparing the use of the term Boomer to use of the N word are we?!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by VilleN

I believe it was John Mulaney - great way to sum it up though.

It was Mulaney. He's great. The word in question was midget.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

I think calling someone a racist based on 1 incident is unfair, especially one when it was used to describe a type of music and not calling a person that. Being racially insensitive might be completely stupid, but it doesn't necessarily make you a racist.

A racist is someone who believes they are superior due to their race and/or discriminates or hates based on race.

The N-word is a terrible word and shouldn't be used, and I fully believe Peters should be out on his ass. But, I do think people are going to far in calling him a racist.

He didn't just "use it to describe a type of music" though. He used it to describe "a type of person" (ie, black people who started hip hop and of course the individual black person who happened to be listening to hip hop at the time). I have no idea what his reason for doing so was. No one but Bill Peters knows his reasons for doing so. All any one else can do is draw inferences from what he said and the circumstances in which he said it. At this point, I think its a pretty reasonable inference that Bill Peters had some repulsive attitudes, whether consciously or unconsciously, regarding race at the time he made the statements.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Makarov

He didn't just "use it to describe a type of music" though. He used it to describe "a type of person" (ie, black people who started hip hop and of course the individual black person who happened to be listening to hip hop at the time). I have no idea what his reason for doing so was. No one but Bill Peters knows his reasons for doing so. All any one else can do is draw inferences from what he said and the circumstances in which he said it. At this point, I think its a pretty reasonable inference that Bill Peters had some repulsive attitudes, whether consciously or unconsciously, regarding race at the time he made the statements.

It is also possible that he called it N music because the music uses that word so often... It's still grossly insensitive and unacceptable, but less directed at a particular group. Could be a bit of a stretch, but a possibility.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Makarov

He didn't just "use it to describe a type of music though". He used it to describe "a type of person" (ie, black people who started hip hop and of course the individual black person who happened to be listening to hip hop at the time). I have no idea what his reason for doing so was. No one but Bill Peters knows his reasons for doing so. All any one else can do is draw inferences from what he said and the circumstances in which he said it. At this point, I think its a pretty reasonable inference that Bill Peters had some repulsive attitudes, whether consciously or unconsciously, regarding race at the time he made the statements.

This. I said it before - if you say N** music you are saying it's music by or for N**s. Like punk music is by "punks". And no, it's not "music that says N*** a lot", otherwise why not use one of the other many many swear words in the music. So in saying that Peters is saying the name about those who made it and those who like it. And who was playing it at the time.

Any justification based on linguistics is a huge stretch. Beyond the breaking point.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by VilleN

It is also possible that he called it N music because the music uses that word so often... It's still grossly insensitive and unacceptable, but less directed at a particular group. Could be a bit of a stretch, but a possibility.

A bit of a stretch? It strains credulity to the breaking point.

[Northendzone]

i'd assume that somewhere in this discussion that someone has already noted that the prime minister of our country made a cultural appropriation and he was re-elected to lead the entire country.

i guess bill peters must of ignored justin's plea that we all learn something from justin's misstep.

this just furthers my idea that the first period segment on HNIC be renamed to contrition corner and each week another hockey personality could come on and repent for his hockey sins

anyways, i am not supportive of bill in this situation, but i do feel for the guy in that he possibly made one small mistake (yes for all i know he could be a full on racist) and he could be forced out of his current job and possibly not coach again (or for a while at least)

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This is obvious bull####. Of course OK Boomer is ageist - it's a rhetorical tool used to instantly discount a person's opinion based on when they wre born, and cast that person as someone worth mocking and not taking seriously. It's mildly obnoxious. It is generally used deliberately to be mildly obnoxious, in order to provoke a reaction and then laugh at the person for getting angry. Trolling, basically. And "mildly obnoxious" is very obviously not comparable to using the N word.

It might have been Trevor Noah who said this recently, but it sums it up: if you're debating the relative badness of two words, and you won't even say one of them, that's the worse word.

On most places on the internet, such as CP, you don't know how old someone is, so you can only judge them on their opinion.


In this usage of the word Boomer:


Bernie Sanders: not a Boomer

Someone rambling about how they preferred an older revision of Minecraft: Boomer

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Makarov

A bit of a stretch? It strains credulity to the breaking point.

I'm probably guilty of giving people too much of the benefit of the doubt at times.

[DeluxeMoustache]

There are only 31 head coaching positions, and to fill them, they do not need Peters and this baggage.

Having said that, I am not a fan of the immediate and complete broad brush painting approach. Hockey News is running a series of articles and Graeme Townshend describes encountering and forgiving racist utterances and in fact has a history with Peters

https://thehockeynews.com/news/artic...gave-his-coach

That TheHockeyNews.com is publishing his story is neither to indict nor support Peters, but an attempt to identify the complexities of this thorny issue.

...

Townshend believes the same about Peters as he does his college coach. In a fateful twist, Townshend worked with Peters in the mid-1990s when he was winding up his playing career. Townshend was playing in the now-defunct International League for the Houston Aeros and was also running hockey schools in Texas. Peters was operating a youth hockey program in San Antonio and hired him in to work with some of the students.

“He brought me in. A black guy,” Townshend said. “He could have picked a hundred different people and he picked the one black person who ran hockey schools. If he was a racist, why would he do that? He could have picked 50 white guys and he picked me.”

Townshend said not everyone who utters a slur is necessarily a racist. Addesa made a bad choice, but Townshend said the coach’s usual conduct was more telling about his makeup. Addesa not only heavily recruited him, Townshend said, he also made him a captain and had his back on other occasions.

“If you were a racist, why would you name a black guy your captain? Does that make any sense?” Townshend said. “If he hates black people so much, why would he put me in a position to lead his hockey team? He slipped up one time, one error, one mistake. I’ve made a lot of mistakes, too. In fact, I’ve made mistakes at school that should have gotten me kicked off the team and that guy, Mike Addesa, he helped me. He could have gotten rid of me so many times and he didn’t. I cut classes and things like that. I should have been kicked off the team for cutting classes. And he could have taken my scholarship away, too. I had seen him do that to other guys who broke team rules. He didn’t do that to me, though. If he wanted to get rid of me and he was a racist, he had three other opportunities to do that and he never did.”

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Makarov

There may be some small differences between the respective HR processes (hiring, termination, etc) for NHL coaches and the President of the United States.

Great post.

At the end of the day it is about working together to educate and make the world a better place. Many years ago the term deaf and dumb was used to describe "can't hear and speak" I still hear (see) it occasionally from older people and it is not intended in a bad way when they do it; However a lot of groups and individuals have gotten together to educate the public about not labeling, but using appropriate terms such as addressing a person by their name. It takes time, education takes time, and incidence like the one with Bill Peters reflects the need for change. Bill Peters might feel bad now, but he will soon learn how hurtful and how wrong it is to address people in such a disrespectful, belittling, derogatory way. This happened ten years ago and the effects of it are still lingering.

It is still imperceptive that he apologize to the person he offended if he wants to show that he is sincere about his actions. Apologizing to his boss sidesteps the person, Akim Aliu who in own words was hurt. Good for Aliu for speaking up which is the first step towards healing, a sincere apology from Peter's in that letter would have gone a long way to restore the individual and the public's faith that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

If Peters wants to coach again he would do well to get some counselling, rehabilitate and become spokesperson on behalf of people like Akim Aliu. Everything happens for a reason.

[stone hands]

you can

a) not be a truly racist hateful person

AND

b) say racist things that can get you fired

you dont have to be a cross burning klan member to say insensitive things that will get you fired

[Makarov]

Townshend believes the same about Peters as he does his college coach. In a fateful twist, Townshend worked with Peters in the mid-1990s when he was winding up his playing career. Townshend was playing in the now-defunct International League for the Houston Aeros and was also running hockey schools in Texas. Peters was operating a youth hockey program in San Antonio and hired him in to work with some of the students.

“He brought me in. A black guy,” Townshend said. “He could have picked a hundred different people and he picked the one black person who ran hockey schools. If he was a racist, why would he do that? He could have picked 50 white guys and he picked me.”

Its important to get as many sides of the story as possible. I'm glad the media is doing that. I would just note that a person can both have black/Chinese/gay/etc friends or colleagues who they treat respectfully and hold prejudicial attitudes about black/Chinese/gay/etc persons at the same time. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

EDIT: GioForPM's post does a better job explaining what I mean.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by Makarov

He didn't just "use it to describe a type of music though". He used it to describe "a type of person" (ie, black people who started hip hop and of course the individual black person who happened to be listening to hip hop at the time). I have no idea what his reason for doing so was. No one but Bill Peters knows his reasons for doing so. All any one else can do is draw inferences from what he said and the circumstances in which he said it. At this point, I think its a pretty reasonable inference that Bill Peters had some repulsive attitudes, whether consciously or unconsciously, regarding race at the time he made the statements.

I think you are reading way too much into a quote.

I'm a rap guy, have been since the late 80s. When I started listening to gangsta rap my dad said something that started almost exactly the same as Peters' quote and it wasn't at all racist in nature.

My dad said something like "I'm tired of this n ####. All they say is n this, and n that. I don't want you listening to music that uses that word." At which point he threw my NWA tape out of the window of the car. With the way Peter's apparently tried to mock the lyrics, my gut says it was something along the same lines that intended, but executed it terribly and without tact.

Writing someone off as a racist because of a quote that can be interpreted in multiple ways, is a pretty negligent way to decide someone is a racist.

He said racially intensive things while at work, he should have been terminated for that. This whole thing is a PR nightmare for the Flames and thus he should be fired for that.

But none of this is enough to fairly label him anything.

[GioforPM]

Being a racist does not mean you won't like or support a particular member of the group you're racist towards. Heck, sometimes it means you will assume good things about that person, eg: "I will put Jamal in the anchor position for this race - he's gotta be the fastest runner".

So the fact that Addesa was nice to a black kid on his team doesn't make him not a racist. That said, what Addesa said was worlds different than what Peters said.

In 1989, late in Townshend’s senior year at RPI, coach Mike Addesa was fired after he directed racially charged comments to Townshend and another black teammate, saying something to the effect of, “If you don’t put forth a greater effort, the world will only see you as a stereotypical n—er.” Townshend, who was 23 at the time, said he went directly to Addesa’s office, confronted his coach and they worked out their differences. Addesa’s remarks were subsequently reported by another player to university administration and Addesa was fired. (It should be noted Addesa was hired in later years by the Detroit Red Wings, Flames and Vancouver Canucks as a scout.) Townshend defended Addesa at the time and still does, maintaining it was an isolated, regretful incident.

Basically Addesa was saying the world is racist and used the usual racial term to make his point. Now, that was dumb and not appropriate, but it's far more forgivable. It's way closer to the acting example that was brought up a couple days ago. Not to mention it was addressed between the two right away, and it was also addressed by the school. Addesa got jobs after because his explanation, the player's support and his subsequent actions made that OK.

[Corral]

Something that I have thought about in this. If akim had disclosed this only by private correspondence to the flames or the nhl, would we be in the same place today. Would peters be on his way out? Or would the team reaction be different? Same event, but not disclosed to the public.

[sureLoss]

News Update

Frank Seravalli @frank_seravalli
Statement from Akim Aliu: