Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Go Back   Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community > Main Forums > Fire on Ice: The Calgary Flames Forum
Ivrnet

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-12-2018, 11:02 AM   #2421
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo View Post
I think they put off a rebuild for four years because they didn't want to lose their fan base (owner fear of the return to 14,000 crowds we saw in 98-00).
So why aren't the owners in U.S. markets that routinely get fewer than 14,000 fans at games more impatient than the owners of Canadian teams?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CliffFletcher For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2018, 11:04 AM   #2422
BigErnSalute_16
Backup Goalie
 
BigErnSalute_16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny01 View Post
Exactly. If we are talking strictly hockey reasons Hamilton would be one of the least likely players moved. It was pretty clear to me something was off with him and I was definitely of the belief he should be the core piece moved out. Much of that also had to do with the lack of trade value I think Brodie has.

When you break the trade down it makes a ton of sense to me.
1. There were some issues the team had with Hamilton off the ice. Be it his brother, attitude, etc
2. Ferland’s contract situation and lack of consistency made him expendable.
3. Fox told the Flames he was not going to sign.

In return the Flames get
1. 0.5 ppg 23 year old C/RW who was the 5th overall pick in 2013. Swedes have been known to take longer to hit their offensive ceiling and the Flames desperately need a right shot in the top 6. Flames lock him up for 6 years T $4.85M per
2. 21 year old Dman who was the 5th pick in 2015 (the same draft the Flames traded their first rounder for Hamilton). Hanifin has 10 goals, 32pts, and great analytics, he will not turn 22 until roughly halfway into next season. We still wait on his contract terms.

To me this is a great hockey trade where the Flames get a little younger, add a position of need, and not gut another position to do it. I was a person that liked the trade initially but love it now.
The coolest part of this trade for me is the fact that Hanafin is going into the season where almost all dmen have a jump in production. The fourth season of a career sees production spikes for almost every dman in the league.

So if the Flames can sign him to a reasonable long term contract we might be looking at a massive value contract in a few years, especially if you consider what, imo, his best comparable did in his career so far, seth jones.

Both jones and Hanifin were ranked top three in their draft years and fell slightly, jones 1 fell to 4, Hanifin 3 fell to five. Both players are 6'3"+ and over 200 lbs. Both were traded in their third season with their draft team. And both players had almost identical production over their first three seasons. Jones: .32ppg, .33ppg, .38ppg. Hanifin: .29ppg, .36ppg, .40ppg.

Jones next season saw his production jump to .56ppg followed the next year by another increase to .73ppg.

Even if Hanifin doesn't follow jones exactly over the next two seasons and remains at the low-end of the fourth-year production spike he should hit 40 points. But I think there is a very good chance we see a breakout season for hanifin. Same coach, so doesn't have to get used to a new system, better production than Jones in 2nd and 3rd season and really good possession numbers to back it up.

needless to say, I'm excited about this trade and will be over the moon if the flames sign him long-term to a reasonable contract.
BigErnSalute_16 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to BigErnSalute_16 For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2018, 11:08 AM   #2423
Itse
Franchise Player
 
Itse's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
That's one way of looking at it.

Another way is that since the 2014 draft the Bruins have drafted in the first 2 rounds 14 times.

The Flames by comparison have drafted in the first 2 rounds...9 times.
So they've had 4 extra picks in the first 2 rounds in a period where they've had two 110+ point season and never a season below 93 points.

I don't think I need to spell out the Flames record in the same timeframe, yet somehow we're actually down 1 pick in that timeframe. (10 obviously being the expected number of picks in 5 drafts.)

(correction: 4 extra picks not 6. They've had 5 picks more than us.)

Last edited by Itse; 08-12-2018 at 11:39 AM.
Itse is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Itse For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2018, 11:24 AM   #2424
jayswin
Celebrated Square Root Day
 
jayswin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse View Post
So they've had 6 extra picks in the first 2 rounds in a period where they've had two 110+ point season and never a season below 93 points.

I don't think I need to spell out the Flames record in the same timeframe, yet somehow we're actually down 1 pick in that timeframe. (10 obviously being the expected number of picks in 5 drafts.)
Just incredible.
jayswin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2018, 11:33 AM   #2425
Bingo
Owner
 
Bingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
That's one way of looking at it.

Another way is that since the 2014 draft the Bruins have drafted in the first 2 rounds 14 times.

The Flames by comparison have drafted in the first 2 rounds...9 times.

In the first 3 rounds:

Boston: 16 times
Calgary: 11 times
And to add to that ...

When you look at average draft pick (all rounds, all picks) and sort from low number to high number you'll see the Bruins as well (as you point out).

A who's who list of teams finishing near the bottom but with Boston and Anaheim wedged in there getting it done despite making the playoffs and contending.

Row Labels Count of Player Average of Num.
Buffalo 36 90
Carolina 38 91
Arizona 40 93
Boston 30 93
Anaheim 30 97
Ottawa 30 98
New Jersey 34 98
Philadelphia 41 99
Montreal 34 100
Detroit 40 101
Columbus 33 101
Dallas 34 101
NY Islanders 32 102
Toronto 41 102
Colorado 34 103
Vancouver 33 103
Florida 32 105
Winnipeg 33 106
NY Rangers 36 106
Vegas 19 106
Edmonton 32 108
Calgary 29 109
Nashville 31 110
St. Louis 35 110
San Jose 32 111
Tampa Bay 38 111
Chicago 41 113
Los Angeles 34 114
Washington 27 115
Pittsburgh 24 121
Minnesota 32 126
Bingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2018, 11:42 AM   #2426
GoJetsGo
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
That's one way of looking at it.

Another way is that since the 2014 draft the Bruins have drafted in the first 2 rounds 14 times.

The Flames by comparison have drafted in the first 2 rounds...9 times.

In the first 3 rounds:

Boston: 16 times
Calgary: 11 times
This conveniently lacks the context that three of Boston's picks in this stretch were from Calgary which we now in large part parlayed into Lindholm and Hanafin. But don't let that get in the way of the 'woe is us' narrative.
GoJetsGo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to GoJetsGo For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2018, 12:13 PM   #2427
Enoch Root
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2012
Exp:
Default

Comparing and counting picks over a period of time, without also considering that the Flames acquired Hamilton, Hamonic and Smith with the outgoing picks, is laughably obtuse.

Let's tradfe all of our players for picks and then we'll have more picks than everybody!
Enoch Root is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Enoch Root For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2018, 12:21 PM   #2428
Flash Walken
Franchise Player
 
Flash Walken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
Comparing and counting picks over a period of time, without also considering that the Flames acquired Hamilton, Hamonic and Smith with the outgoing picks, is laughably obtuse.

Let's tradfe all of our players for picks and then we'll have more picks than everybody!
Wow! Hamilton and Hamonic and Smith!

Meanwhile, the Bruins WON more games this playoff year (5) than the Flames have PLAYED in the last 3 years (4).

I'm sure they are jealous of Calgary's sweet players.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoJetsGo View Post
How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years?
Flash Walken is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Flash Walken For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2018, 12:21 PM   #2429
Strange Brew
Franchise Player
 
Strange Brew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Exp:
Default

Let’s trade all of our picks for more Travis Hamonics so we can ice a team of second pairing defensemen!

Heaven forbid some want to look at how another team is able to garner some success.
Strange Brew is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Strange Brew For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2018, 12:33 PM   #2430
GoJetsGo
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
Meanwhile, the Bruins WON more games this playoff year (5) than the Flames have PLAYED in the last 3 years (4).
Right, and that is directly tied to the number of draft picks in the last three years.

Who needs context.
GoJetsGo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to GoJetsGo For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2018, 12:35 PM   #2431
Flames Fan, Ph.D.
First Line Centre
 
Flames Fan, Ph.D.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Underground
Exp:
Default

I think it dates way back. The Bruins took decent shots on goal in the draft through the mid 2000s when we were giving away 2nd round picks left and right. From 2004 to 2010 we had 1 single 2nd round pick (Mitch Wahl baby!).

Goes to show that you need to be meaningfully involved (prior to 3rd round) in the draft every year. It's tough enough to find a good player in any given year, let alone find one when you only participate in the later rounds.
Flames Fan, Ph.D. is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Flames Fan, Ph.D. For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2018, 12:39 PM   #2432
GoJetsGo
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D. View Post
I think it dates way back. The Bruins took decent shots on goal in the draft through the mid 2000s when we were giving away 2nd round picks left and right. From 2004 to 2010 we had 1 single 2nd round pick (Mitch Wahl baby!.

That really has nothing to do with our current management though.

Flash's agenda has always been to crap all over the team, it's management and it's fans as though where it's at now is no different than it's entire history.

As mentioned, it's outright obtuse to count the number of draft picks between the Bruins and Flames in the last three years like it makes a point while conveniently leaving out the +/- 3 selections from the Flames that has now turned into two top five picks turned successful roster players in Lindholm and Hanafin.

Last edited by GoJetsGo; 08-12-2018 at 12:42 PM.
GoJetsGo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2018, 12:53 PM   #2433
Flames Fan, Ph.D.
First Line Centre
 
Flames Fan, Ph.D.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Underground
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoJetsGo View Post
That really has nothing to do with our current management though.

Flash's agenda has always been to crap all over the team, it's management and it's fans as though where it's at now is no different than it's entire history.

As mentioned, it's outright obtuse to count the number of draft picks between the Bruins and Flames in the last three years like it makes a point while conveniently leaving out the +/- 3 selections from the Flames that has now turned into two top five picks turned successful roster players in Lindholm and Hanafin.
Owners set the pace. They made it clear in the mid 2000s that they were ok with a strategy that sold the picks. Although GMs have autonomy within the framework, owners sanction their moves implicitly through their continued employment (or eventual firing).

And I don't think Flash is being obtuse. Even the Flames draft picks that were sent off for Lindholm and Hanafin were only possible because... the Flames kept their draft picks at the time.

His message isn't some absolutist "never ever trade picks for anything!" On the contrary, historically the Flames have been insufficiently stringent in giving picks away and that needed (needs?) a course correction. I'd argue our biggest weakness in the 2000s has been a lack of participation in the higher rounds of the draft and a romance with trading our picks for reclamation projects from other teams. The latter is especially problematic because it tends to engage some sunk cost fallacy where the team tries hard to show they didn't make a mistake, setting us back unnecessarily.
Flames Fan, Ph.D. is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Flames Fan, Ph.D. For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2018, 01:04 PM   #2434
Macindoc
Scoring Winger
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigErnSalute_16 View Post
The coolest part of this trade for me is the fact that Hanafin is going into the season where almost all dmen have a jump in production. The fourth season of a career sees production spikes for almost every dman in the league.

So if the Flames can sign him to a reasonable long term contract we might be looking at a massive value contract in a few years, especially if you consider what, imo, his best comparable did in his career so far, seth jones.

Both jones and Hanifin were ranked top three in their draft years and fell slightly, jones 1 fell to 4, Hanifin 3 fell to five. Both players are 6'3"+ and over 200 lbs. Both were traded in their third season with their draft team. And both players had almost identical production over their first three seasons. Jones: .32ppg, .33ppg, .38ppg. Hanifin: .29ppg, .36ppg, .40ppg.

Jones next season saw his production jump to .56ppg followed the next year by another increase to .73ppg.

Even if Hanifin doesn't follow jones exactly over the next two seasons and remains at the low-end of the fourth-year production spike he should hit 40 points. But I think there is a very good chance we see a breakout season for hanifin. Same coach, so doesn't have to get used to a new system, better production than Jones in 2nd and 3rd season and really good possession numbers to back it up.

needless to say, I'm excited about this trade and will be over the moon if the flames sign him long-term to a reasonable contract.
I agree, need to lock him up now for 7 years. He probably won't hit Jones' heights (after all, Jones was projected to be 1st overall for good reason), but he should have noticeable bumps in production for the next several years, and he's going to get a lot more expensive if we bridge him.
Macindoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2018, 01:40 PM   #2435
Enoch Root
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2012
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
Wow! Hamilton and Hamonic and Smith!

Meanwhile, the Bruins WON more games this playoff year (5) than the Flames have PLAYED in the last 3 years (4).

I'm sure they are jealous of Calgary's sweet players.
Way to move the goalposts. We all know where the Flames have finished the last few years, but that doesn't change the facts with respect to acquiring players and picks, which was, you know, the conversation that you were in.
Enoch Root is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Enoch Root For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2018, 01:42 PM   #2436
Enoch Root
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2012
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Brew View Post
Let’s trade all of our picks for more Travis Hamonics so we can ice a team of second pairing defensemen!

Heaven forbid some want to look at how another team is able to garner some success.
Don't turn into another Flash, let's keep some civility to the conversation.
Enoch Root is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Enoch Root For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2018, 01:46 PM   #2437
Enoch Root
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2012
Exp:
Default

Not that people with an agenda will care, but the reason the Bruins have had more success in the last few years than the Flames have, is not because they have had a few more picks, it's because they have Bergeron, Marchand and Chara, along with Pasternak turning into a gem. Not to mention Rask.
Enoch Root is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2018, 01:47 PM   #2438
GoJetsGo
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D. View Post
Owners set the pace. They made it clear in the mid 2000s that they were ok with a strategy that sold the picks. Although GMs have autonomy within the framework, owners sanction their moves implicitly through their continued employment (or eventual firing).

I don' think there's any line to be drawn coming down from ownership between Darryl Sutter going mad scientist through most of his GM tenure free-wheeling and giving picks away left and right and Treliving trying to make calculated moves to improve the current team. Yes, there are examples like the premium paid for Hamonic I get the criticism for... but I think acquiring young, cost controlled pieces like Lindholm and Hanafin moves us further toward the sustained success those angry that we're not using the picks are speaking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D. View Post

And I don't think Flash is being obtuse.


I don't think you're famliar with the poster then. Because this:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
Wow! Hamilton and Hamonic and Smith!

Meanwhile, the Bruins WON more games this playoff year (5) than the Flames have PLAYED in the last 3 years (4).

I'm sure they are jealous of Calgary's sweet players.

Couldn't have been any more obtuse. How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years? Moreover, how is that a slight against the moves we made? I don't seem to recall the likes of Senyshyn, DeBrusk and Zboril contributing to many of Boston's playoff wins this season.


Again, you can't toss out and cherry pick the number of picks we've made vs. a team like the Bruins in the last three years devoid of the fact several of the picks that swung the number in their favour (from us giving to them) resulted in us acquiring two significant, cost controlled young former top five picks that are now on our roster.
GoJetsGo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2018, 01:51 PM   #2439
Oling_Roachinen
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macindoc View Post
I agree, need to lock him up now for 7 years. He probably won't hit Jones' heights (after all, Jones was projected to be 1st overall for good reason), but he should have noticeable bumps in production for the next several years, and he's going to get a lot more expensive if we bridge him.
Not that I'm really commenting on anything, but the ONLY reason Hanifin wasn't billed as a potential first overall, like Jones, is that his draft year happened to have some okay hockey prospects in McDavid and Eichel.

Going into his draft season it was the three of them (with Hanifin being a distant third place) but his scouting report was every bit as strong as Jones was.
https://www.tsn.ca/talent/mckenzie-h...anifin-1.88237
Quote:
Hanifin is a shade under 6-foot-3 and weighs 205 pounds. The scouting report says he has world-class wheels, elite offensive skills, can run a power play and use his size effectively to play physically when it's required. He's not quite as big as Nashville Predator Seth Jones, the last prospect, before Hanifin, who went into his NHL draft year billed as the next great American defenceman. Some scouts like Hanifin better than Jones at the same stage of development. Others think the jury is still out on that. Regardless, Hanifin is certainly viewed as being in the same universe as the top defenceman from the 2013 NHL draft, who was ranked No. 1 much of his draft year before going fourth overall to Nashville.
Oling_Roachinen is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Oling_Roachinen For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2018, 02:10 PM   #2440
Strange Brew
Franchise Player
 
Strange Brew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
Don't turn into another Flash, let's keep some civility to the conversation.
I was responding to your hyperbole of trading all of our players for picks.

There have been several posts with good discussion of why the Bruins have had some success which I thought was rather interesting. Now it has been derailed by two posters who care more about commenting on another posters agenda. Too bad.
Strange Brew is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Strange Brew For This Useful Post:
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:47 PM.

Calgary Flames
2017-18




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016