[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Boston's strength is putting bullets in the drafting chamber - something Flashwalken constantly hammers home as a must - and then excelling at the draft table.

You do that constantly and you can afford to lose stars and still build a strong team on nice, short cycles, rather than the 5-6 year rebuilds most teams do.

Their biggest strength was Ottawa choosing Redden over Chara, and Toronto choosing Pogge over Rask.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Their biggest strength was Ottawa choosing Redden over Chara, and Toronto choosing Pogge over Rask.

Bergeron, Marchand, Carlo, Krug, were all guys taken after the 1st round. Pastrnak was 25th overall. They won their Stanley Cup with Tim Thomas, who they signed for nothing out of Europe.

Chara/Redden, yes they got lucky with that. But the Bruins consistently find value without drafting top-5. Or even top 10.

[jayswin]

See that's where I've really come around to FlashWalken's philosophical difference from Flames management past and present. He was always saying keep those picks and turn them into prospects "More bullets in the chamber".

I used to oppose him, citing the crapshoot of draft picks turning out vs a sure fire depth player or whatever we spend them on. But the more I think about the more I realize it's not...

Lazar vs What you get on average in the second round

it's

Lazar vs keeping the pick, making two other moves to get other picks and then hopefully one turns into a star.

Boston does this very well.

[Bingo]

Ironically I just looked at draft picks in the last 5 years and the Bruins have made one more selection than the Flames in that time frame.

Both teams towards the bottom.

Chicago, Philly and Toronto have the most at 41

Bottom line ... contending teams have less picks with Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton being exceptions. Canadian fan base pressure?

[Hackey]

The Seguin trade was a disaster. Boston would look pretty good with him in the lineup right now.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Ironically I just looked at draft picks in the last 5 years and the Bruins have made one more selection than the Flames in that time frame.

Both teams towards the bottom.

Chicago, Philly and Toronto have the most at 41

Bottom line ... contending teams have less picks with Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton being exceptions. Canadian fan base pressure?

This is a great question Bingo. Do you believe the Flames organization really feels pressure from its fans to try and try and get to the finish line sooner or does it all just come from within?

In Houston it took new ownership before Astros organization fully committed to building trough prospects. The fan base didn’t change.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

This is a great question Bingo. Do you believe the Flames organization really feels pressure from its fans to try and try and get to the finish line sooner or does it all just come from within?

In Houston it took new ownership before Astros organization fully committed to building trough prospects. The fan base didn’t change.

I've always felt the rabid fan bases play a role

They want playoffs every year.
They want action at the trade deadline and the draft.

I think it can be misinterpreted though as knowledgeable fans get that some trades are better not made, but the vocal minority may push the needle.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I've always felt the rabid fan bases play a role

They want playoffs every year.
They want action at the trade deadline and the draft.

I think it can be misinterpreted though as knowledgeable fans get that some trades are better not made, but the vocal minority may push the needle.

I suspect that is a big reason. But it’s funny, the Flames don’t really strike me as an overly customer centric organization. Nor do the other Canadian clubs you mentioned. I guess the expectations of the fan base may just generally create that type of impatience vs. a direct result of the team catering to its fans.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jayswin

See that's where I've really come around to FlashWalken's philosophical difference from Flames management past and present. He was always saying keep those picks and turn them into prospects "More bullets in the chamber".

I used to oppose him, citing the crapshoot of draft picks turning out vs a sure fire depth player or whatever we spend them on. But the more I think about the more I realize it's not...

Lazar vs What you get on average in the second round

it's

Lazar vs keeping the pick, making two other moves to get other picks and then hopefully one turns into a star.

Boston does this very well.

Sounds kinda like Treliving. Does everyone forget when he accumulated picks?

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Bergeron, Marchand, Carlo, Krug, were all guys taken after the 1st round. Pastrnak was 25th overall. They won their Stanley Cup with Tim Thomas, who they signed for nothing out of Europe.

Chara/Redden, yes they got lucky with that. But the Bruins consistently find value without drafting top-5. Or even top 10.

Bergeron and Marchand. Both players taken over 10 years ago. Hell, Bergeron was a part of the Bruins organization before Gio was a part of the Flames. This is like a Red swigs scenario. A couple really good picks make people think they’re better at drafting than they really are.

In the same timespan between Bergeron and Carlo the Flames have Gio, Brodie, and Gaudreau. Ferland and Bouma acquired a lot of GP, a handful of players, but really how much better have the Bruins’ post 1st Round picks been in that time? Take away that ‘06 draft with Marchand and Lucic and just how consistent are those picks compared to the Flames or the rest of the league?


The teams’ success was built around Chara. That overcame a lot of bad moves, and helped improve a lot of other ones.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sounds kinda like Treliving. Does everyone forget when he accumulated picks?

Almost every bad team in the league trades players for picks at the deadline.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I've always felt the rabid fan bases play a role

They want playoffs every year.
They want action at the trade deadline and the draft.

I think it can be misinterpreted though as knowledgeable fans get that some trades are better not made, but the vocal minority may push the needle.

I think it's ownership as well. I think now especially this is an organization that needs playoff revenue to help offset the dollar imbalance. It took them a long time to give up in the Iginla led team that was way past it's prime and it's cost them a year or two in this rebuild. I see this as a bit of an impatient group that has spent a lot of money and wants results.

[FlamesFanTrev]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think it's ownership as well. I think now especially this is an organization that needs playoff revenue to help offset the dollar imbalance. It took them a long time to give up in the Iginla led team that was way past it's prime and it's cost them a year or two in this rebuild. I see this as a bit of an impatient group that has spent a lot of money and wants results.

This exactly. The pressure is on from Edwards and co.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Almost every bad team in the league trades players for picks at the deadline.

Right. Let’s not make more of such moves than they deserve is my point. Treliving accumulated assets such as pucks and prospects and then he either used the picks (Andersson/Kykington/Valimkai/Dube) or spent them (Hamilton/Hanifin:Lindholm/Lazar). Picks used right now won’t be NHL ready for 3 years (because Calgary was never going to be a top 5 picker in any realistic scenario) so he had to keep the Gaudreau/Monahan/Gio window in mind as well.

[CliffFletcher]

The Flames owners are more impatient than the fans. And really, how do you measure fan impatience? How does it tangibly affect the operation of the team?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Flames owners are more impatient than the fans. And really, how do you measure fan impatience? How does it tangibly affect the operation of the team?

I'm not sure Canadian fans are actually any more impatient. (Not saying you're saying that, this is just further pondering on what you said.) I think it's more that increasing the number of eager fans makes all the extreme voices seem louder.

For example;
If you have 1 fan in ten that's unsatisfied with a prospect, it's easy to see it's just that one guy and the discussion is likely to move on because even that one guy most likely will talk about other topics some of the time.

When you have 1000 fans out of ten thousand it starts to create a situation where at any given moment there's someone talking about how that prospect is a bust, regardless of any other discussions going on.

So even if the fans aren't any more impatient, just increasing the sheer number of people constantly talking hockey makes discussions sound very different.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I've always felt the rabid fan bases play a role

They want playoffs every year.
They want action at the trade deadline and the draft.

I think it can be misinterpreted though as knowledgeable fans get that some trades are better not made, but the vocal minority may push the needle.

Is it the fans or the owners? Owners in many markets (Not Ottawa) can sell out the building all year plus get big money for a playoff gate.

Look at the Flames they were committed to a rebuild for about 16 months than the team exceeded expectations and they changed their behavior.

I think the owners of these teams lack patience and marketing creativity to get Managers who will build something. Always chasing good talking sizzle over substance.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I suspect that is a big reason. But it’s funny, the Flames don’t really strike me as an overly customer centric organization. Nor do the other Canadian clubs you mentioned. I guess the expectations of the fan base may just generally create that type of impatience vs. a direct result of the team catering to its fans.

I think they put off a rebuild for four years because they didn't want to lose their fan base (owner fear of the return to 14,000 crowds we saw in 98-00).

I think Feaster had an interview at a trade deadline where he talked about moving assets, and the next day they acquired Freddy Modin. That said a lot about the owners either wanting to make the playoffs, or perhaps fearing the perception of a rebuild.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Ironically I just looked at draft picks in the last 5 years and the Bruins have made one more selection than the Flames in that time frame.

That's one way of looking at it.

Another way is that since the 2014 draft the Bruins have drafted in the first 2 rounds 14 times.

The Flames by comparison have drafted in the first 2 rounds...9 times.

In the first 3 rounds:

Boston: 16 times
Calgary: 11 times

[jayswin]

Thanks Flash, I was doubting myself after Bingo's post as I seem to remember so many picks by the Bruins, but that's it right there - They acquired many valuable picks, not just any picks.