R3 - Series Thread - Jets (C2) vs Golden Knights (P1) Vegas Wins 4-1

[bubbsy]

Im loving this vegas run.

It's nice to see that a team built around speed, decent skill, character and coaching can be this successful. Its NOT all about who can ice the most high lottery picks.

The 30 other gms in the league are definitely taking notice.

I also think building around a strong defense is a thing of the past. Speed/scoring forwards, great goaltending, strong coaching can get the job done. I feel like the leafs are all in on that model, will be curious to see if they prove the hypothesis right.

[CaptainCrunch]

I love Cinderella stories, I really do, but I still have a sense that the perfect combination of motivation and luck have produced an amazing run here.



Do I believe that this team will be as good going down the road?


Probably not.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

The rules for protection were too harsh, yet the Calgary Flames did not have any player LV wanted and instead they took a UFA.

Just shows how pathetic our talent really is

I disagree with this. Vegas clearly wanted Engelland, just like Calgary wanted to re-sign him.

Vegas took a quality defenceman from us, regardless of his contract status. The rules were in place that signing a pending UFA would count as a selection.

[Caged Great]

I personally find it a bit ridiculous that Vegas has gone this far and will probably win the cup.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by AC

I disagree with this. Vegas clearly wanted Engelland, just like Calgary wanted to re-sign him.

Vegas took a quality defenceman from us, regardless of his contract status. The rules were in place that signing a pending UFA would count as a selection.

What are you disagreeing with ? He was a UFA from LV. Everyone knew he was going there. They took him because no one else on our team had value , not to get some leg up on signing him . And they were correct that no one the Flames left unprotected would have helped them .There’s a reason we protected Lazar.

[crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

What are you disagreeing with ? He was a UFA from LV. Everyone knew he was going there. They took him because no one else on our team had value , not to get some leg up on signing him . And they were correct that no one the Flames left unprotected would have helped them .There’s a reason we protected Lazar.

The reason for protecting Lazar was the 2nd rounder spent to aquire him. Kulak for example had some value which he proved last season. Also, imagine that the could have had Brouwer. Imagine Vegas gunning for the cup on the back of the mighty Brouwer Play!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

If a ghost appears in front of you and says that you can save all of your children except for one, and you must choose one to be sacrificed, would you consider your one lost child "expendable"?

My god what a brutal take.

Players aren't children that you love equally. They are assets to their respective teams. Each team was allowed to protect 10 or their most prized assets, along with their young players and prospects. Anything beyond that is, more or less, expendable (in relation to the ones that were kept).

Comparing that to losing your children? JC

Vegas wasn't given a stacked deck, they were given a bunch of players that were (in fact) deemed expendable, relative to the better players on their teams. The fact that Vegas has turned that into a cup run is astounding. It is borderline miraculous. All I can do is tip my hat to them.

But suggesting they were gifted this is a terrible take, IMO.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

What are you disagreeing with ? He was a UFA from LV. Everyone knew he was going there. They took him because no one else on our team had value , not to get some leg up on signing him . And they were correct that no one the Flames left unprotected would have helped them .There’s a reason we protected Lazar.

He is disagreeing with this assertion:

Originally Posted by Jason14h

...The rules for protection were too harsh, yet the Calgary Flames did not have any player LV wanted and instead they took a UFA.

Just shows how pathetic our talent really is

For whatever reason some posters like to spin the expansion draft into some silly narrative about how poor a team the Flames are, and devoid of talent. This is simply not true.

In actual fact the Flames were very fortunate during the expansion draft that Engelland was a UFA, and that VGK was so eager to add him to their team so early. This had NOTHING to do with the Knights rejecting Flames unprotected players, but was actually much more about how important Engalland was perceived to be from the start. It was clearly a priority for them to include him from the start as a key to how they wanted to build the team in the first place.

[cannon7]

The Knights are a shining example of how much of a team game hockey really is. You will have more success with a roster full of middling NHLers than you will a top heavy roster where your depth is subpar. If you can't legitimately roll your lines, you'll be vulnerable to a team that can. There's nothing embarassing about this run. If anything, this run will solidify a fanbase in LV for years to come. Lord knows the Raiders aren't going to bring a whole lot of winning to the desert.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I predicted the Knights would be 1st round fodder so I don't want to cast too much doubt on them but let's not forget that we've seen countless teams in the last 10 years have one great season and then regress for several years afterwards.

Colorado a few seasons ago comes to mind. The Oilers last season. Florida a couple seasons ago.

Obviously not every situation is the same, but I don't think it is crazy to suggest that there'll be some sophomore slump and regression closer to career averages for several of Vegas' key contributors. They had career seasons from 8 of their top 10 scorers. That's not all just good coaching and that type of chemistry, IMO anyways, is unlikely to last forever.

I'm not saying their run isn't impressive or that GMGM didn't do a masterful job regardless of their results for next season, or the next 5 seasons for that matter. Just a reminder that these types of runs do happen from time to time and Vegas got the perfect mix of those factors this season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I predicted the Knights would be 1st round fodder so I don't want to cast too much doubt on them but let's not forget that we've seen countless teams in the last 10 years have one great season and then regress for several years afterwards.



Colorado a few seasons ago comes to mind. The Oilers last season. Florida a couple seasons ago.



Obviously not every situation is the same, but I don't think it is crazy to suggest that there'll be some sophomore slump and regression closer to career averages for several of Vegas' key contributors. They had career seasons from 8 of their top 10 scorers. That's not all just good coaching and that type of chemistry, IMO anyways, is unlikely to last forever.



I'm not saying their run isn't impressive or that GMGM didn't do a masterful job regardless of their results for next season, or the next 5 seasons for that matter. Just a reminder that these types of runs do happen from time to time and Vegas got the perfect mix of those factors this season.

Generally I agree but usually with those one season wonders you can pick out something that went totally right and might not th next year. For example, we all knew that if Talbot regressed at all, Edmonton was out, and that it could very easily happen that way. But for the life of me, I can't say "look at X on Las Vegas, he won't be like that next year". Looking at Karlsson, I just can't say he won't be just as good next year. Fleury will be Fleury next year. Maybe the D won't be as good but I can't say why that would be.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Generally I agree but usually with those one season wonders you can pick out something that went totally right and might not th next year. For example, we all knew that if Talbot regressed at all, Edmonton was out, and that it could very easily happen that way. But for the life of me, I can't say "look at X on Las Vegas, he won't be like that next year". Looking at Karlsson, I just can't say he won't be just as good next year. Fleury will be Fleury next year. Maybe the D won't be as good but I can't say why that would be.

I think the key is their offensive production. I totally agree, it didn't look like they had any underlying stats that were poor or covered up by great goaltending or luck or whatever ever else.

The key for me is whether or not virtually their entire top 9 can continue to perform far above their previous personal best seasons. If even half those guys revert back to their old numbers, or somewhere in between even, it is likely that Vegas is fighting for a playoff spot and the 2nd round instead of winning the division and fighting for the cup.

[CaptainCrunch]

I would be concerned about Karlsson with a 24% shooting percentage.


Haula and his 16% shooting percentage


Fleury at 33 has never ever been close to .927 svpct.


There are areas that are similar to the Oilers where there are a lot of career years, and Vegas looks like a bit of a house of cards.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I would be concerned about Karlsson with a 24% shooting percentage.


Haula and his 16% shooting percentage


Fleury at 33 has never ever been close to .927 svpct.


There are areas that are similar to the Oilers where there are a lot of career years, and Vegas looks like a bit of a house of cards.

I'd take a house of cards that was in the WCF with a 3-1 lead.

Winning is cyclical in the Salary Cap Age, so take it when you can get it.

Especially for an expansion team. This is doing wonders for their fan-base.

Even if Winnipeg comes back and wins it and the Knights suck for years, this is a Cinderella Run for them, let them enjoy it!

[Azure]

I'm sure a lot of the players had career years and won't come close to that. Good coaching does that.

But you don't think there are players on the Jets that had career years as well? Laine will probably top 40 again, as will there other top guys, but does a guy like Conner turn around and get 30 again? Go down the list.

Any team that gets to the 2nd, 3rd or final round needs great years from some of their players and often times those years are not repeated again.

Same thing with the Flames a couple years ago when they won so many comeback & OT games. It got them to the second round, but it was repeatable. Everyone knew that. But it certainly didn't take away from what they had accomplished.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

He is disagreeing with this assertion:

For whatever reason some posters like to spin the expansion draft into some silly narrative about how poor a team the Flames are, and devoid of talent. This is simply not true.

In actual fact the Flames were very fortunate during the expansion draft that Engelland was a UFA, and that VGK was so eager to add him to their team so early. This had NOTHING to do with the Knights rejecting Flames unprotected players, but was actually much more about how important Engalland was perceived to be from the start. It was clearly a priority for them to include him from the start as a key to how they wanted to build the team in the first place.

If you believe the Knights took Engelland even though he was a UFA and he was signing there anyways, despite thinking other exposed Flames would have had any value to them I have a bridge to sell you !

There was not 1 unprotected Flames player that Vegas valued at all.

If anything Vegas passing on all our guys should have been a massive red flag, which became very evident during the season have the worst 4th line and depth in the league

It isn’t swinging a narrative that the Flames are devoid of talent. It is a narrative that the Flames are devoid of secondary talent. The Flames had horrible depth this past season. An entire line that should not have been in the NHL.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

My god what a brutal take.

Players aren't children that you love equally. They are assets to their respective teams. Each team was allowed to protect 10 or their most prized assets, along with their young players and prospects. Anything beyond that is, more or less, expendable (in relation to the ones that were kept).

Comparing that to losing your children? JC

Vegas wasn't given a stacked deck, they were given a bunch of players that were (in fact) deemed expendable, relative to the better players on their teams. The fact that Vegas has turned that into a cup run is astounding. It is borderline miraculous. All I can do is tip my hat to them.

But suggesting they were gifted this is a terrible take, IMO.

It was an analogy.

When the NHL forced teams to make all their players expendable except for 7 forwards, 3 defencemen, and a goalie, that is not teams "choosing to make certain players expendable", that is the NHL waltzing into each team's roster situation and forcing them to expose players. Let me guess, if the NHL said each team can only protect one forward, and the Flames chose to protect Gaudreau, that would mean the Flames "deemed Monahan to be expendable"?

Bottom line, I think it's ridiculous to think that the Flames "deemed" Engelland to be expendable. They wanted to keep Engelland, just like they wanted to keep many of their other assets. It was the league who forced them to only protect a certain number and expose the rest. It was a hard decision that IMO the Flames shouldn't have had to make.

The Vegas management team was absolutely given an extremely generous system within which to piece together its roster. They got to pick many quality players from around the league. Good on Vegas for making the most of the opportunity, and good for them for accomplishing what they've accomplished. However, shame on the NHL for handing an expansion team an opportunity to assemble an excellent roster right off the bat. What the NHL should have done instead is give teams more player protection, and give Vegas more draft picks to help them build a good team a few years down the road.

[Oling_Roachinen]

If you're arguing that Vegas got a very generous expansion draft, a 35 year old UFA who was going to sign in Vegas anyways is just about the worst argument you could make for that. They literally wanted nothing from the Flames.

And who can blame them? Brouwer, Stajan, Bouma, Bartowkski or unsigned (and later unqualifed) Chiasson were the only non-UFA NHL players that Vegas could have taken. Shinkaruk and Poirier put up 30 points as 23 year olds in the AHL now. The Flames would have loved them to take Brouwer, Stajan or Bouma. Shinkaruk and Poirier are extreme longshots to make the NHL at this point. So they decided against taking on Bartowkski, lol.

[rage2]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

The Vegas management team was absolutely given an extremely generous system within which to piece together its roster. They got to pick many quality players from around the league. Good on Vegas for making the most of the opportunity, and good for them for accomplishing what they've accomplished. However, shame on the NHL for handing an expansion team an opportunity to assemble an excellent roster right off the bat. What the NHL should have done instead is give teams more player protection, and give Vegas more draft picks to help them build a good team a few years down the road.

I’ll just quote myself. Getting tired of typing.

Originally Posted by rage2

I find the anger towards the Knights and the blaming of draft rules too easy, stacked deck by the NHL to be quite funny. The Knights' top scorer was part of a package to bury the Clarkson contract, and pick someone CBJ didn't want to keep in exchange for a first and second. Their #2 scorer was chosen by MIN to protect others on their roster, and in exchange, giving the Knights their #8 scorer.

CBJ and MIN gifted the Knights their #1, #2 and #8 goal scorers. To be fair, nobody expected Karlsson and Haula to perform the way they did this year, but you can't argue that it's the draft rules that gave them these players. These guys were literally forced on the Knights in exchange for picks and prospects.

Not to mention Florida giving the Knights Marchessault by taking on Smith as a salary dump. It wasn’t the NHL draft rules giving up these players, it was poor asset management by GMs across the league. Although to be fair, nobody saw this coming, not even after the draft and roster was settled, but it’s fun to look at (and whine about) in hindsight and blaming the NHL because you’re salty.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

In actual fact the Flames were very fortunate during the expansion draft that Engelland was a UFA, and that VGK was so eager to add him to their team so early. This had NOTHING to do with the Knights rejecting Flames unprotected players, but was actually much more about how important Engalland was perceived to be from the start. It was clearly a priority for them to include him from the start as a key to how they wanted to build the team in the first place.

In the interviews that were posted about Vegas last summer, they spoke about the importance of having Engelland and his wife available after the expansion draft for the other guys and their wives to contact about the various little things of living in Las Vegas (best neighbourhoods, best schools, things like that).

The team had people on staff to help out, but it was nice for the players and their families to have another hockey family available who knows the area. Someone made a joke about the Engellands acting as Concierges for the new players.

That was why they felt it was important to claim Engelland in the expansion draft and get him signed right away rather than waiting the week and a half to just sign him on July 1.

Sure, that may have been different had the Flames had someone more exciting available, but we all knew that the timing of the expansion worked out well for the Flames this time. In two or three years, with Seattle, they probably won't be so lucky.