R2 - Series Thread - Golden Knights (P1) vs Sharks (P3)

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Zach

Speed kills. Knights vs Jets will be a great series.

I thought the Knights vs the Sharks has been the best playoffs series I've seen since the Flames in 2004 and in 1989 both against the Canucks. I'd imagine the Jets vs Knights won't be a letdown as both teams are fast, with the Jets having size advantage. It's too bad these two teams are not playing for the Stanley Cup Finals. The Eastern matchups were a bit of a snoozer compared to the Western seeds so far. Whoever makes it out of the west will win the Cup this year. I just hope the Caps knock out the Pens.

[Jordan!]

The butthurt in this thread is on max.

If this was a Quebec team making noise nobody would be complaining

[nik-]

Yeah, you can tell we're all just bitter cuz it's an American team.

... wait?

Shouldn't you be going for dinner in a strip mall or something?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I didn't say every team should make the playoffs or win the cup. What they should have is an even playing field to build their teams and not have overly lenient expansion rules lead to an expansion team being gifted a top 5 team right out of the gate.

The ones that draft and develop well, and build a team properly will always have more success. If they wanted to give them an advantage, they should have just given them an extra 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick in every draft for the 1st three years of their existence. And then allowed the other NHL teams to protect more of their assets that they'd built up instead of being pillaged by the new comer.

I think one of the only reasons you think this is unfair is because you've been cheering for a team with no real success maybe in your living memory.

If the Flames are in the playoffs this year or they make the conference final at any point in the last 10, I'd wager you don't feel so burned up about it.

Teams competing with the Flames suffered losses that weakened their organizations. The Vegas Expansion actually should've been helpful to the flames. But instead...

Consider the following:

That amazing team in Vegas didn't even take a player off the Flames roster. The Flames essentially weren't impacted in any way at all by the Vegas expansion. Feel-good story for Engelland to be sure, but I think it's tough to be an honest flames fan and feel anything but Envy about Vegas.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

lol, what does that prove?

Nothing except I was wrong. Me and about a million other people.

The deck was obviously stacked or they wouldn't have put up 109 points and secured a spot in the western conference final. They won 51 games this year! The last (and ONLY) time the Flames won 50+ was 1989 FFS!

The team is too good, obviously.
The rules were too loose, obviously.

They poached too many good players from teams that worked hard to acquire those players and are now reaping the benefits, and it's a joke.

bullcrap. talk about revisionist history.

while people thought they had an advantageous draft situation, they just did everything the right way.
they poached nobody. they did their homework and also took advantage of teams who did a crappy evaluation of their own players.

the owners were intelligent enough to pick a good GM, who in turn picked a great coach.

if it was obvious that they were given great players and a far too good of a situation, why did so many people think they put together a steaming turd of a team?

I'll agree with your statement that you and many others were wrong, but that's all. the rest is after the fact whinging and sour grapes.

wasn't a stacked deck. they just played their cards better than everyone else.

heck use Fleury as an example. go to the thread here where it was rumored the flames were in on him. look at the dislike for the player, especially at the rumored cost. I bet no more than 2 in 10 CP posters wanted him. he was an oft injured, inconsistent, playoff choker.

one thing to admit you were wrong, it's another to say you were only wrong because the system was designed to allow them to "cheat"

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

...That amazing team in Vegas didn't even take a player off the Flames roster. The Flames essentially weren't impacted in any way at all by the Vegas expansion. Feel-good story for Engelland to be sure, but I think it's tough to be an honest flames fan and feel anything but Envy about Vegas.

I am a Flames fan and I am honestly not envious about the Vegas Golden Knights. It's sports—hardly anything over which to work oneself into a seething rage.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I am a Flames fan and I am honestly not envious about the Vegas Golden Knights. It's sports—hardly anything over which to work oneself into a seething rage.

From envy to seething rage. That escalated quickly!

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Bob Murray — 1,008 career NHL games; six years prior front office experience
John Chayka — 0 games
Don Sweeney — 1,115 games; nine years
Jason Botterill — 481 games; seven years
Brad Treliving — 0 games
Stan Bowman — 0 games
Joe Sakic — 1,378 games; two years
Jarmo Kekäläinen — 55 games
Jim Nill — 524 games; 22 years
Ken Holland — 4 games
Peter Chiarelli — 0 games
Dale Tallon — 642 games; seven years
Rob Blake — 1,270 games; four years
Marc Bergevin — 1,191 games; four years
David Poile — 0 games
Ray Shero — 0 games
Garth Snow — 368 games; 0 years
Jeff Gorton — 0 games
Pierre Dorion — 0 games
Ron Hextall — 608 games; 14 years
Jim Rutherford — 457 games; who knows?
Doug Wilson — 1,024 games; ten years
Doug Armstron — 0 games
Steve Yzerman —1,514 games; four years
Jim Benning — 610 games; 20 years
George McPhee — 115 games
Brian MacLellan — 606 games; 13 years
Kevin Cheveldayoff — 0 games

Ten NHL general managers have never played a single NHL game, and another three have played less than 150. Of the former career players who are current GMs, only two have entered their positions with less than two years prior front-office experience, and another three with less than seven.

I don't think either one of your assertions is correct. It seems too me that the NHL employs a relatively high number of former scouts and non-players in executive ranks, and it also seems that "fast tracking" former players into executive roles is fairly uncommon.

Ahem. So you have just proven that 2/3 of NHL GM’s are ex-players. Thanks.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Ahem. So you have just proven that 2/3 of NHL GM’s are ex-players. Thanks.

Ex players whom have predominantly cut-their teeth working within NHL front offices well prior to their promotions to the top job.

You asserted 1) it is the norm for teams to "fast track" former players into top executive roles. This is false. You asserted 2) that the league would be better served to graduate scouts into these roles, which as I have demonstrated is something that they already do with considerable regularity.

[rohara66]

Flames fans that are angry at Vegas' success should direct their anger at the Flames players who really never gave a comparable effort night in and night out compared to what the Knights did and continue to do.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I think one of the only reasons you think this is unfair is because you've been cheering for a team with no real success maybe in your living memory.

If the Flames are in the playoffs this year or they make the conference final at any point in the last 10, I'd wager you don't feel so burned up about it.

Teams competing with the Flames suffered losses that weakened their organizations. The Vegas Expansion actually should've been helpful to the flames. But instead...

Consider the following:

That amazing team in Vegas didn't even take a player off the Flames roster. The Flames essentially weren't impacted in any way at all by the Vegas expansion. Feel-good story for Engelland to be sure, but I think it's tough to be an honest flames fan and feel anything but Envy about Vegas.

I already said this about myself nearly to the letter. Sour grapes and its made worse by the Flames and their uselessness.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

From envy to seething rage. That escalated quickly!

Yes. A few posters in this thread are projecting as quite angry.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

bullcrap. talk about revisionist history.

while people thought they had an advantageous draft situation, they just did everything the right way.
they poached nobody. they did their homework and also took advantage of teams who did a crappy evaluation of their own players.

the owners were intelligent enough to pick a good GM, who in turn picked a great coach.

if it was obvious that they were given great players and a far too good of a situation, why did so many people think they put together a steaming turd of a team?

I'll agree with your statement that you and many others were wrong, but that's all. the rest is after the fact whinging and sour grapes.

wasn't a stacked deck. they just played their cards better than everyone else.

heck use Fleury as an example. go to the thread here where it was rumored the flames were in on him. look at the dislike for the player, especially at the rumored cost. I bet no more than 2 in 10 CP posters wanted him. he was an oft injured, inconsistent, playoff choker.

one thing to admit you were wrong, it's another to say you were only wrong because the system was designed to allow them to "cheat"

What the #### are you on about?

Not once did I say they cheated. They used the lenient draft rules that the NHL gave them to full advantage. Plus as others have said they got lucky in a few instances.

And I've already admitted to sour grapes multiple times.

[burn_this_city]

Vegas appears to be successful due to shrewd drafting and luck. More than anything, I think you had a group of players come together as cast off orphans. They were motivated to prove everyone who let them go they were wrong to do so. They also weren't individuals coming into at entrenched culture on another team, so there wasn't a mentality of this is how we do it here. They built their own culture of us against the world.

Once they got rolling and found early success is snowballed from there. It seems like belief is the most important factor in team sports.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Panthers left 30 goal scorer on an ELC unprotected so isn't that their own fault? Reilly Smith was acquired for a 4th round pick from the Panthers which had nothing to do with the draft. The Penguins actually threw in a 2020 2nd round pick for Columbus to take Fleury's contract (this rather than accept a trade offer from the Flames). The Blue Jackets protected Brandon Dubinsky over Karlsson. Honestly if anything this draft proved how teams have a difficult time accessing and developing the talent in their own systems. I simply feel the NHL has a management problem in that too many GM's aren't very good at their jobs.

I'm not sure how one could quantify this statement. By definition, one third of GMs have to be in the bottom third in performance and one third have to be in the top third. It is literally impossible for it to be any other way.

At any rate, if the Golden Knights had to follow the draft rules the Atlanta Thrashers did, then there's no way they get Marshesseault. They probably don't get Karlsson, depending on how highly the Jackets valued him, etc. Unquestionably, the Golden Knights made some astute pics. But it is also unquestionable that the draft was designed to give them a far better system out of the gate than any other expansion team ever received. That was spoken of heavily before the draft. What nobody was expecting was for it all to turn golden right away. I thing most were expecting some of these prospects to need a year and that 2018-19 or 2019-20 would be when Vegas truly broke out.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I already said this about myself nearly to the letter. Sour grapes and its made worse by the Flames and their uselessness.

Forgive me, I'm not trying to get your goat here, just that I don't think the draft rules were all that lenient, quite frankly.

Vegas did a good job within the confines of the rules. Several teams did bad jobs within the confines of the rules.

I think it's the sour grapes that might be influencing your belief on the leniency or fairness of the expansion rules.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Ex players whom have predominantly cut-their teeth working within NHL front offices well prior to their promotions to the top job.

You asserted 1) it is the norm for teams to "fast track" former players into top executive roles. This is false. You asserted 2) that the league would be better served to graduate scouts into these roles, which as I have demonstrated is something that they already do with considerable regularity.

Why do you focus so much time and effort in your contrarian posts? I appreciate your opinion but I do not appreciate you calling my opinion false. No conversation like this can start without first mentioning Garth Snow. Right from playing to GM. BOOM! Plenty of these guys like Joe Nieuwendyk went directly from playing into management bypassing proper scouting. Ron Francis went from the Raleigh Youth Hockey Association to director of hockey operations with the Hurricanes. Don Sweeney retired in 2004 and in 2006 he joined the Bruins as the team’s director of player development. Joe Sakic after taking two years off after retirement was named executive advisor of the Avalanche. Even Conroy got hired directly as a special assistant to the GM after retiring. Honestly I could go on and on about how many of these guys didn’t pay their dues in proper talent evaluation as you don't become a good evaluator of talent overnight. It takes years and sometimes decades to become a top scout and talent evaluator of talent. As Jammies said earlier the NHL has always been a big old boys club.

Another thing that has to be noted is that unlike most other sports most NHL players education usually tops out at high school diploma due to the nature of drafting 18 year olds. What other industries do multimillion dollar business operations get placed into the hands of people with high school diplomas? At least a lot of NFL and NBA players have business degrees.

[rage2]

I find the anger towards the Knights and the blaming of draft rules too easy, stacked deck by the NHL to be quite funny. The Knights' top scorer was part of a package to bury the Clarkson contract, and pick someone CBJ didn't want to keep in exchange for a first and second. Their #2 scorer was chosen by MIN to protect others on their roster, and in exchange, giving the Knights their #8 scorer.

CBJ and MIN gifted the Knights their #1, #2 and #8 goal scorers. To be fair, nobody expected Karlsson and Haula to perform the way they did this year, but you can't argue that it's the draft rules that gave them these players. These guys were literally forced on the Knights in exchange for picks and prospects.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Forgive me, I'm not trying to get your goat here, just that I don't think the draft rules were all that lenient, quite frankly.

Vegas did a good job within the confines of the rules. Several teams did bad jobs within the confines of the rules.

I think it's the sour grapes that might be influencing your belief on the leniency or fairness of the expansion rules.

I dunno, if you are able to steal a conference finalist (at least), 109 point team from the players the other 30 teams were forced to leave exposed for one reason or another, something is really wrong with the way the rules are set up IMO.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by rage2

I find the anger towards the Knights and the blaming of draft rules too easy, stacked deck by the NHL to be quite funny. The Knights' top scorer was part of a package to bury the Clarkson contract, and pick someone CBJ didn't want to keep in exchange for a first and second. Their #2 scorer was chosen by MIN to protect others on their roster, and in exchange, giving the Knights their #8 scorer.

CBJ and MIN gifted the Knights their #1, #2 and #8 goal scorers. To be fair, nobody expected Karlsson and Haula to perform the way they did this year, but you can't argue that it's the draft rules that gave them these players. These guys were literally forced on the Knights in exchange for picks and prospects.

Agreed.