R3 - Series Thread - Jets (C2) vs Golden Knights (P1) Vegas Wins 4-1

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

Anyways, I've got a better question for you. There's a bomb on a bus. Once the bus goes 50 miles an hour, the bomb is armed. If it drops below 50, it blows up. What do you do? What do you do?

Shoot the hostages, take them out of the equation.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Shoot the hostages, take them out of the equation.

Did the ghost tell you to do that?

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I agree 100% but good luck around here. Blows my mind how many people are fine with an expansion team being able to build a cup contender right out of the gate by cherry picking other teams rosters and players they spent years and money and assets on acquiring.

Doesn't really matter what anybody thought before, during or immediately after the process either. It's clear now that they were allowed too much leeway and as a result were able to build too good of a team without having to earn it like every other team has to.

I'll be glad if they knock Winnipeg out, because I don't want any other Canadian based team anywhere near the Stanley Cup besides the Flames. But the NHL should be embarrassed IMO, but they won't be because clearly most of the fans are just lapping it up like a cat on a saucer of milk.

Meh, life is never fair. You take what is dealt and you try to run with it. The Golden Knights were given choices just like any other expansion teams that ever existed and they were given choices and draft picks to stay away from certain players. No one expected them to even make the playoffs let alone being on top of the league most of the season, but they made it this far. Give them credit as a team, even if you don't think the players deserved to be champions in such a short period of time. The team deserves the credit for beating out the best of the best in this league.

In addition, the Vegas Knights are playing great hockey, the type of hockey we all wish for the Flames for the longest time. This is the type of hockey that makes this playoffs interesting and exciting to watch. It's no more the boring "defence wins you the cup" but it's the exciting offence that'll get the job done. Who cares if this is not the norm. This is actually good!

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Biff

Terrible post: The league let teams PROTECT their best players and young talent and forced Vegas to make a competitive team out of what was left by selecting from everyone else's lesser players. It's, literally, the definition of an anti-stacked deck. To think otherwise is bordering on deliberate cognitive dissonance on how the process works.

The result in Vegas is a surprising irony given the process, not a confirmation that the process was stacked in their favour.

Nonsense. The league obviously didn't let the 30 original teams protect enough assets, because with what was left exposed Vegas was able to build a team that won 51 games, collected 109 points and is now 1 win away from the Stanley Cup finals. It's a sham and makes the league look like a joke IMO. But hey, everybody is just lapping it up so enjoy I guess.

[calgarywinning]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Nonsense. The league obviously didn't let the 30 original teams protect enough assets, because with what was left exposed Vegas was able to build a team that won 51 games, collected 109 points and is now 1 win away from the Stanley Cup finals. It's a sham and makes the league look like a joke IMO. But hey, everybody is just lapping it up so enjoy I guess.

I dunno. We've seen some great roster teams lose focus, fall apart, not even make the playoffs. I think the mechanics of the situation isn't the league stacking them, but many more wheels in motions and factors. This is not an Olympic dream team by the way you are inferring.

Among other things, I think this diminishes the actual players themselves who found themselves uprooted and have performed given the circumstances.

Either which way you are going, we are really seeing some stellar hockey in this series. These two teams have the speed, the depth and we a clearly seeing a team with unstoppable momentum.

[doctajones428]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Nonsense. The league obviously didn't let the 30 original teams protect enough assets, because with what was left exposed Vegas was able to build a team that won 51 games, collected 109 points and is now 1 win away from the Stanley Cup finals. It's a sham and makes the league look like a joke IMO. But hey, everybody is just lapping it up so enjoy I guess.

Their top 6 forwards put up a combined 180 points more than they did last year on their old teams. It's not like they were gifted a bunch of stars, most of their players were failed prospects, underachievers and has beens. If these players had the seasons they were projected to have, we would be looking at a lottery team

But yes, it's a joke that their best forward, a player who put up 20 and 25 points in his last two season, a player that Columbus specifically wanted Vegas to pick, turned into a 78 point, 43 goal scorer

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Red

I dont cheer for vegas the expansion team. I cheer for the players that were given up on by their teams that make up the Knights. It's a good human story.
As for who deserves this or doesnt deserve that? Who cares. You build the best team you can given the circumstances. Just look at the Oilers and Buffalo, both garbage teams that paid their dues. Do you want them to succeed? Id rather see Vegas succeed.
Should we help Vancouver out because they never won? Only fair they get their cup after all these years, right?

I think a lot of GMs over complicated their situations and vegas took advantage of it. Should we feel sorry for Pitts because they gave away MAF? They had another goalie. One that sucked vs Wsh. But they chose to keep him.
Would Florida want a mulligan or two? You bet. They made a huge mistake. Can we blame Vegas? FLA could have offered some other players. But they chose to keep them instead.
Werent we happy that Engelland wanted to go there? We hit a jackpot. Only now we realize that muscle and ledership does mean something. We were all wrong. Blame vegas?

They have earned this run. Good on them.

The teams didnt give up on these players. They were forced to expose them by the NHL. Youre out of your mind if you think Columbus wouldnt have rather kept Karlsson but they did what they thought was best given the rules that were forced upon them. Same with Anaheim and Florida and every other team.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Nonsense. The league obviously didn't let the 30 original teams protect enough assets, because with what was left exposed Vegas was able to build a team that won 51 games, collected 109 points and is now 1 win away from the Stanley Cup finals. It's a sham and makes the league look like a joke IMO. But hey, everybody is just lapping it up so enjoy I guess.

The Vegas Knights had the opportunities to take Brouwer and Stajan off the Flames roster. Yet, they didn't go down that other parallel universe. Treliving traded for Hamonic rather than securing a deal for Engelland. Sucks for us, lucky for them.

[calgarywinning]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The teams didnt give up on these players. They were forced to expose them by the NHL. Youre out of your mind if you think Columbus wouldnt have rather kept Karlsson but they did what they thought was best given the rules that were forced upon them. Same with Anaheim and Florida and every other team.

You are kind of arguing yourself. In Columbus he was a 1/3 a point player for two seasons. Suddenly he is a 1 pt a game player in Vegas because he was exposed?

Same with the impossible to type Marchessault. Little over half a point a game with a huge -25 now a plus 36 and a point a game.

The real concept here for the rest of the teams that have been through the grind and draft, is to focus on these players like Sam Bennett and under performers, team work. The skill is there, it's just something about how they are coached and encouraged. So I've got a real upside good feeling for the Flames.

I would say the real advantage Vegas has was to get so lucky to land MAF. But they had a stretch where they did fine without him. Winnipeg has enough going that if they were the better team they would be in the series lead right now. I also don't think they are going out 4-1.

[gamesaver]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Anyway no expansion team in my memory has had a goalie play this well. And in the NHL, that can mean instant contender.

True, but its fair to point out Vegas goaltending situation early this season when MAF, M. Subban and Dansk all got injured at the same time and they were forced to roll Lagace, a goalie with no NHL experience. Even with his usual under 90% perforamce, somehow they managed to keep winning.

I think this season only shows how much of a difference is a good GM who can read players, see potential and understands the importance of a character. I dont want to be a whiner, but when I see how our GM treats his draft picks and misreads his own roster the same time and then you see McPhee building a cup contender out of unwanted players...

[gamesaver]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The teams didnt give up on these players. They were forced to expose them by the NHL. Youre out of your mind if you think Columbus wouldnt have rather kept Karlsson but they did what they thought was best given the rules that were forced upon them. Same with Anaheim and Florida and every other team.

If I asked you before the season about Karlsson, I guess you would be bragging about how big of a steal he was then, ye? Who could possibly know the guy is a 1st liner, Rocket Richard trophy candidate, considering his previous carreer?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Ghost? You don’t listen to the ghost, man.

I listen to Ghost, they are excellent!

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The teams didnt give up on these players. They were forced to expose them by the NHL. Youre out of your mind if you think Columbus wouldnt have rather kept Karlsson but they did what they thought was best given the rules that were forced upon them. Same with Anaheim and Florida and every other team.

What does this even mean. Of course they were forced to loose someone. Did you think the expansion team was going to pick beer leaguers?

Columbus PAID LV to take Karlsson. If that isn’t giving up on a player what is?

If anything should annoy you it is that Calgary could have traded and protected almost any of these guys, and instead kept Lazar.....

The rules for protection were too harsh, yet the Calgary Flames did not have any player LV wanted and instead they took a UFA.

Just shows how pathetic our talent really is

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

If a ghost appears in front of you and says that you can save all of your children except for one, and you must choose one to be sacrificed, would you consider your one lost child "expendable"?

If I have 25 kids? Hell yes! Take more!!

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The teams didnt give up on these players. They were forced to expose them by the NHL. Youre out of your mind if you think Columbus wouldnt have rather kept Karlsson but they did what they thought was best given the rules that were forced upon them. Same with Anaheim and Florida and every other team.

I think some teams made mistakes in the expansion draft. Misjudged the values of their players and the value of the Vegas selection itself. Of course hindsight makes this much easier but I thought Florida really made some bad choices here in letting Smith and Marchessault go. March was 26 and coming off a 51pt season. Maybe a trade would have been the better route.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The teams didnt give up on these players. They were forced to expose them by the NHL. Youre out of your mind if you think Columbus wouldnt have rather kept Karlsson but they did what they thought was best given the rules that were forced upon them. Same with Anaheim and Florida and every other team.

What a strange take. They were offered other teams' lesser players. How else was an expansion team supposed to build their roster?

[CliffFletcher]

Vegas wasn't handed a Cup caliber team. They did end up with a much better team than expected (even expected by McPhee) because:

1) Some teams made bad decisions in order to protect certain players.
2) The Penguins had two top-flight goalies.
3) Vegas found chemistry, which is something almost impossible to deliberately formulate.
4) They have a very good coach.

Guaranteed Seattle will get the same expansion rules, and guaranteed they won't ice a team as good as the Golden Knights.

The funny thing about all this that McPhee was roundly criticized for abusing the generosity of the expansion rules by foregoing many of the best players available to him in exchange for picks and prospects. People said the league gave him the opportunity to ice a decent team, and he essentially tanked in order to build for the future.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

What does this even mean. Of course they were forced to loose someone. Did you think the expansion team was going to pick beer leaguers?

Columbus PAID LV to take Karlsson. If that isn’t giving up on a player what is?

If anything should annoy you it is that Calgary could have traded and protected almost any of these guys, and instead kept Lazar.....

The rules for protection were too harsh, yet the Calgary Flames did not have any player LV wanted and instead they took a UFA.

Just shows how pathetic our talent really is

I think if the Flames had not protected Lazar, the Knights would have taken him, he really fits into their mold. Then they would have just signed Engelland as a free agent.

Lazar probably would have blossomed as a Knight too.

You can't really say the Flames have bad assets and the Knights took all these great assets. They just hired a really good coach that was able to make them a real TEAM. coaching matters, way more than even the GM. The GM can put a good roster together but if he hires the wrong coach, it won't work. A GM can put a bad roster together (which is what all the experts said after the expansion draft) and look like a genius by hiring the right coach.

In this era of the salary cap and parity, coaching is incredibly important and can be the thing that determines success and failure.

[Sylvanfan]

I feel good for Fleury. He handled the situation in Pittsburgh really well and he was actually excited to go to Vegas. He has found that extra level in his game to the point where he is the difference in this series.

I still have a soft spot for Engelland. He's a tough honest hockey player. He has his limitations and advanced stats paint him as a dinosaur. But he's a gamer, and I'm one of these old time dinosaurs who thinks that sort of thing still counts even though it can't be measured and evaluated like shot superssion metrics.

This series shouldn't end in 5, but I don't think it gets past game 6.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

If a ghost appears in front of you and says that you can save all of your children except for one, and you must choose one to be sacrificed, would you consider your one lost child "expendable"?

If the names of those children were Brouwer and Stajan, you betcha I would. That would also free up some cash to feed the others and bring in someone that would've been better for the family. Heck, I would even sacrifice a prospect to get that done!

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

If anything should annoy you it is that Calgary could have traded and protected almost any of these guys, and instead kept Lazar.....

The rules for protection were too harsh, yet the Calgary Flames did not have any player LV wanted and instead they took a UFA.

Just shows how pathetic our talent really is

Sure we could have tried to trade for some of these guys but part of the reason Vegas is such a surprise is that no one expected them to be as good as they've been. And even if we did, there is no guarantee we'd get the same production. Much of what Vegas has done is unique to their situation and I doubt almost every player on the Vegas roster would be having a career season if they'd stayed with their previous team or gone anywhere but Vegas.

As for the second part, you're wrong and that's a really bad take.

Vegas still has roster limits. It made no sense for them to take another player then sign Engelland as a UFA. It's not like it is a guarantee they could turn around and trade whoever they take instead for picks. And they might not want to bury that player in the AHL. So what are they supposed to do with someone they have no room for? Engelland was a perfect choice and by all accounts was happy to go to Vegas, so why wouldn't they take him?


Engelland's UFA status was completely irrelevant. He was the player they wanted and they took him.

Flames were actually one of the lucky teams in that they didn't have a bunch of bad contracts they were forced to protect and had to expose any good young talent. We also got lucky that Vegas didn't take one of our castoffs and turn them into a superstar (for this season anyway).