Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[RM14]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Meanwhile the City of Dallas/Arlington broke ground today on their 2nd Billion dollar plus arena in a decade.


https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...ington-stadium

wowza! nice rendering of "Texas Live!"

Spoiler for size

Spoiler!

[simmer2]

Originally Posted by Backlunds_socks

But there is nothing that backs up your claim that if the team left we'd have a negative economic impact that would be substantial.

All the items I listed are fairly negative if they disappear.

[simmer2]

Originally Posted by Cappy

and then we get this...

Trying to state some facts and get a childish response back...nice.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by simmer2

All the items I listed are fairly negative if they disappear.

Then they should be easy to prove out.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by simmer2

Trying to state some facts and get a childish response back...nice.

Which facts? I saw your opinions, which you are welcome to, but no facts.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

...this chapter is over and its time to move on...
...the decision appears to have been made...
...I just don't see the owners coming back to the negotiation table as it appears they believe there is nothing left to negotiate...

I don't believe you. When the city has repeatedly stated that they want an arena, that they are prepared to provide some form of funding, and that they are willing and eager to negotiate I would be shocked if anyone actually believes that the Flames will not eventually come back to the table. That is nonsense.

[You Need a Thneed]

The Flames’ stance of “we are no longer negotiating”, is comically laughable.

There is literally only one organization they can negotiate with if they want to get any funding that isn’t their own. That organization has already offered them a 9 figure amount towards the project. The only other alternative is literally to pay for everything themselves, where they would still pay property tax.

There are 2 options - make a deal with the city who is already offering you a 9 figure amount, or build everything yourself, where you would not get that large amount of money, and every other detail would be the same.

After the election, the Flames will be back at the negotiating table, tweaking the City’s current offer.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by simmer2

Trying to state some facts and get a childish response back...nice.

If these are facts:

Please show me any study not done by the people trying get the Arena built that their is net economic benefit. (ensure it includes substitution affects)

Please show me any study that shows negative economic affects when a team leaves.

Please show me any study that shows positive economic growth when a team enters a city.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Meanwhile the City of Dallas/Arlington broke ground today on their 2nd Billion dollar plus arena in a decade.


https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...ington-stadium

Retractable roof for baseball. Kind of goes against the grain a little with all the new parks being strictly outdoor.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Fire

The Flames will have to wait for Nenshi to be out of office, before any significant movement in a arena deal will happen. It's clear Nenshi doesn't care if the Flames remain in the city or not. I know he only has one vote, blah blah blah, but when the city leader cares so little it hurts the process. I doubt Nenshi will remain Mayor longer than 2 more terms. So it might not be until 2023 until we will start seeing movement on the arena front.

Originally Posted by Fire

Pure speculation. Plus he only had a 22% stake in the club. Even if he disagreed it might not make a difference.

Since you clearly are able to catch when other posters are speculating, is it possible for you to apply your skills by proofreading your own posts?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Retractable roof for baseball. Kind of goes against the grain a little with all the new parks being strictly outdoor.

It's just too hot in Dallas for summer baseball outdoors. It can be miserable in their current stadium.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

The Flames’ stance of “we are no longer negotiating”, is comically laughable.

There is literally only one organization they can negotiate with if they want to get any funding that isn’t their own. That organization has already offered them a 9 figure amount towards the project. The only other alternative is literally to pay for everything themselves, where they would still pay property tax.

There are 2 options - make a deal with the city who is already offering you a 9 figure amount, or build everything yourself, where you would not get that large amount of money, and every other detail would be the same.

After the election, the Flames will be back at the negotiating table, tweaking the City’s current offer.

You forgot the third option: move to another city where they are unlikely to have as supportive of a fan base and as a result will likely generate less revenue. Not to mention they'll also pay a relocation fee.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

You forgot the third option: move to another city where they are unlikely to have as supportive of a fan base and as a result will likely generate less revenue. Not to mention they'll also pay a relocation fee.

Yup, that 3rd option clearly doesn’t make sense for anyone, so it doesn’t really need to be brought up.

[GGG]

Arlington is paying for its portion of the stadium with a half-cent sales tax, 2 percent hotel occupancy tax and 5 percent car rental tax. Arlington officials, however, must juggle their finances to accommodate the new stadium.

The taxes set aside for stadium financing are still used to pay the city's portion of the Dallas Cowboys' $1.2 billion stadium that opened in 2009.

This is how Arlington is paying for it.

Essentially tax visitors to the city with the hotel and car tax which in essence is a tax burden mostly placed on businesses.

And everyone with a .5% sales tax.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

You forgot the third option: move to another city where they are unlikely to have as supportive of a fan base and as a result will likely generate less revenue. Not to mention they'll also pay a relocation fee.

That's not what would happen. They'd sell to a group who wants to move the team to their city and don't mind paying the relocation fee as it's cheaper than expansion. The current Flames owners would then reap the benefits of their massive capital gains on the Flames.

People really need to stop trotting out the whole "move to a city where there's not as much support and less revenue" line. It's irrelevant because there's no possible scenario where KK and the owners move the team to Seattle or wherever and operate it from there. They'd sell to a group who's priority of bringing a team to their hometown massively outweighs the fact that KC or Seattle don't have as many hockey fans as Calgary.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by New Era

Really? What's he said lately? Are you talking about the Chamber of Commerce, where he refused to be dragged into a discussion about the arena? Seems they are trying to move forward, but people keep asking questions about the arena issue, which he is refusing to answer.

Well let's see since Ken King came out and said that they were "moving on" he's...

Had a media availability where he talked about the arena.

Announced he was going to show CS&E offer

Released a statement with his interpretation of CS&E offer (with accompanying infographics).

Had an on the record discussion (Several?) with his old media hire Eric Francis where he talked about the arena.

Did his thing with the chamber where he "didn't talk about the arena". We all know damn well he was talking about the arena.

Oh and in that time we've had his fellow owner employee Gary Bettman talking about the arena in a open media availability and in print.

Did I miss any of their "moving on"? Keep in mind that he said they were "moving on" on September 12th... for a group that is "moving on" and are not going to be discussing the arena they seem to be talking an awful lot about the arena.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

That's not what would happen. They'd sell to a group who wants to move the team to their city and don't mind paying the relocation fee as it's cheaper than expansion. The current Flames owners would then reap the benefits of their massive capital gains on the Flames.

The Flames could only do this with BoG approval, and recent history suggests that that would be very difficult to secure.

People really need to stop trotting out the whole "move to a city where there's not as much support and less revenue" line. It's irrelevant because there's no possible scenario where KK and the owners move the team to Seattle or wherever and operate it from there. They'd sell to a group who's priority of bringing a team to their hometown massively outweighs the fact that KC or Seattle don't have as many hockey fans as Calgary.

But what IS relevant is the 1/2 billion dollar expansion fee that the NHL greatly covets, which would also interfere with any teams interested in relocation.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

That's not what would happen. They'd sell to a group who wants to move the team to their city and don't mind paying the relocation fee as it's cheaper than expansion. The current Flames owners would then reap the benefits of their massive capital gains on the Flames.

So the other owners who have to approve the deal give up more expansion money and take a safe hockey market off the table?

[DiracSpike]

I'm not saying a move is likely, I'm saying if the team ever moved it wouldn't be owned by the current group. Murray Edwards doesn't want to own the Seattle Salmon.

Although I do wonder if the BoG would like to send a message by approving the Flames move if the city stands up to their demand for free money. If they cave it kinda blows their house of cards over.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

If they cave it kinda blows their house of cards over.

Nah, the only way they "cave" is if they end up accepting the cities last offer before this whole bruhaha. Otherwise they can just say the final deal was close to what they really wanted (regardless of how true that actually is) to get anyways and their old offer was always negotiable and blah blah blah.