Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Textcritic]

At this point I am most interested to see how the CSEG will respond after Nenshi wins the municipal election in a landslide. When their biggest, boldest play in this negotiation utterly fails and they do return to the table, under what pretence?

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Lots of stuff the city spends money on doesn't generate a net positive return. In fact, if it did, we wouldn't constantly be running deficits

Umm... we aren't. In fact we can't...

http://www.qp.alberta.ca/1266.cfm?pa...5&display=html

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

he isn't basing this on any data, he's said as much.

that's what makes it idiotic.

I know that's why I asked for his personal visitation rates because at least that would back up his poistion with annecdote. It would really help if people just quit with the false arguments.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the feeling the flames give the city, the civic pride isn't worth anything. It is worth something. So frame your argument around good feelings, the red mile, and a once in a lifetime experience of winning the cup. Frame it around Lebron bringing a championship to Cleveland and how that has value that can't be measured. Then at least you can discuss a dollar value associated with that feeling.

The flames owners, and the people in this thread need to quit arguing that the flames have incremental economic benefit and that the city would be materially damaged by their absense. Nothing backs this up.

Instead argue that like public art, architecture, museums it adds value to the cultural Mosaic of the city and that is worth X dollars. Then we can debate what X is.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Reneeee

What sort of data do you suppose is necessary? The tangible data that I would never bother going to Winnipeg without the Jets and now that the jets are there I'm considering a road trip or taking a flight out there to watch the Flames play the jets??

Is that what you're looking for. Sorry I've not hired an analyst to bring in the number for all you numbers guys. The idiotic thing is calling somebody else or their standpoint idiotic.

This thread specifically is a great example of why this city cant negotiate with the Flames... Too many egos thinking they are smarter than one another.

I never said I was correct in my assertation of facts, I just believe the years Winnipeg were sans Jets, they were worse of than the current era when their team has returned, and I'm sure Winnipeg residents don't mind having them back either. I'm even positive if you asked them, probably about 25% of the residents would say their city is better with them than without. Sure its intangible, but how does somebody really place real world dollars on passion... (i'll save you some googling - You can't)

Then quit trying to say it will affect tourism. And more people will want to go there. Argue that the passion is worth it. Quit trying to justify the passion with comparing it to libraries. Argue for community spirit and be done with it.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GGG

...The flames owners, and the people in this thread need to quit arguing that the flames have incremental economic benefit and that the city would be materially damaged by their absense. Nothing backs this up.

Instead argue that like public art, architecture, museums it adds value to the cultural Mosaic of the city and that is worth X dollars. Then we can debate what X is.

Yes!

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GGG

I know that's why I asked for his personal visitation rates because at least that would back up his poistion with annecdote. It would really help if people just quit with the false arguments.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the feeling the flames give the city, the civic pride isn't worth anything. It is worth something. So frame your argument around good feelings, the red mile, and a once in a lifetime experience of winning the cup. Frame it around Lebron bringing a championship to Cleveland and how that has value that can't be measured. Then at least you can discuss a dollar value associated with that feeling.

The flames owners, and the people in this thread need to quit arguing that the flames have incremental economic benefit and that the city would be materially damaged by their absense. Nothing backs this up.

Instead argue that like public art, architecture, museums it adds value to the cultural Mosaic of the city and that is worth X dollars. Then we can debate what X is.

He's not having the same conversation with you that you're having with him.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

At this point I am most interested to see how the CSEG will respond after Nenshi wins the municipal election in a landslide. When their biggest, boldest play in this negotiation utterly fails and they do return to the table, under what pretence?

I don't think they do. You may think Ken King is full of ####, and that's fine, but he has repeatedly stated that this chapter is over and its time to move on. The owners of the team are pretty committed when they make a decision, and the decision appears to have been made. I just hope the fans will accept the path the ownership has charted moving forward, and all possible outcomes.

I think that means that for the foreseeable future the Flames plan to operate out of the Saddledome and will do so with a self-imposed budget. This means that the days of paying to the cap are probably done and it will result in operational changes for the team in the future. If that means that they can no longer afford players, so be it, those players will be cast aside (its been nice knowing you Mr. Backlund) and there will be no possibility of increasing the funds available, even short term. If the team can't compete, that is an outcome (expected) they will deal with downstream.

If, as a result of operational challenges, the team is no longer generating revenues or appears to be profitable as a result of the economic conditions affecting the club, the owners will call it a day and look for someone else to assume the ownership of the hockey team. I'm sure they will look locally, but based on the economics of building, finding a local owner may not be easy. It may be much easier to find an owner elsewhere who has desires of moving the team to where they can be a second tenant for their building. I think this is a much more likely outcome than finding local ownership, unless the citizens of Calgary want to go Green Bay Packer and publicly own the team.

I just don't see the owners coming back to the negotiation table as it appears they believe there is nothing left to negotiate. The idea is dead, and its time to move on. Now its just a matter of nature taking its course.

[simmer2]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

At this point I am most interested to see how the CSEG will respond after Nenshi wins the municipal election in a landslide. When their biggest, boldest play in this negotiation utterly fails and they do return to the table, under what pretence?

Well hopefully that's not the case re Nenshi.

But if it is, hopefully Nenshi will do some actual math and realize there is a very real economic benefit and a very real economic impact if the team left, ie)

- business tax on the property (which still blows me away we have this but this is real)
- provincial corporate taxes
- employees working there that spend money which drives the economy
- people living in the city who spend money in and around the arena that drives the economy

Hopefully facts and numbers can determine an agreeable return for both the City and the Flamea.

[automaton 3]

If ardent Flames fans are this grumpy about the arena proposal, I can hardly imagine how hostile the general public might be.

Nenshi is going to win in a landslide.

[Backlunds_socks]

Originally Posted by simmer2

Well hopefully that's not the case re Nenshi.

But if it is, hopefully Nenshi will do some actual math and realize there is a very real economic benefit and a very real economic impact if the team left.

But there is nothing that backs up your claim that if the team left we'd have a negative economic impact that would be substantial.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GGG

I know that's why I asked for his personal visitation rates because at least that would back up his poistion with annecdote. It would really help if people just quit with the false arguments.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the feeling the flames give the city, the civic pride isn't worth anything. It is worth something. So frame your argument around good feelings, the red mile, and a once in a lifetime experience of winning the cup. Frame it around Lebron bringing a championship to Cleveland and how that has value that can't be measured. Then at least you can discuss a dollar value associated with that feeling.

The flames owners, and the people in this thread need to quit arguing that the flames have incremental economic benefit and that the city would be materially damaged by their absense. Nothing backs this up.

Instead argue that like public art, architecture, museums it adds value to the cultural Mosaic of the city and that is worth X dollars. Then we can debate what X is.

100% this. This should be posted on every page of this thread until a deal is worked out.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by simmer2

Well hopefully that's not the case re Nenshi.

But if it is, hopefully Nenshi will do some actual math and realize there is a very real economic benefit and a very real economic impact if the team left, ie)

- business tax on the property (which still blows me away we have this but this is real)
- provincial corporate taxes
- employees working there that spend money which drives the economy
- people living in the city who spend money in and around the arena that drives the economy

Hopefully facts and numbers can determine an agreeable return for both the City and the Flamea.

and then we get this...

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GGG

The flames owners, and the people in this thread need to quit arguing that the flames have incremental economic benefit and that the city would be materially damaged by their absense. Nothing backs this up.

Nothing except the city's own economic and risk analysis reports completed back in the 90s when they were considering funding for renovations.

People in this thread need to stop arguing that there isn't economic value when the City of Calgary's own analysis concludes that value is well north of $100M (in 1993 dollars).

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by New Era

I don't think they do. You may think Ken King is full of ####, and that's fine, but he has repeatedly stated that this chapter is over and its time to move on. The owners of the team are pretty committed when they make a decision, and the decision appears to have been made. I just hope the fans will accept the path the ownership has charted moving forward, and all possible outcomes.

I think that means that for the foreseeable future the Flames plan to operate out of the Saddledome and will do so with a self-imposed budget. This means that the days of paying to the cap are probably done and it will result in operational changes for the team in the future. If that means that they can no longer afford players, so be it, those players will be cast aside (its been nice knowing you Mr. Backlund) and there will be no possibility of increasing the funds available, even short term. If the team can't compete, that is an outcome (expected) they will deal with downstream.

If, as a result of operational challenges, the team is no longer generating revenues or appears to be profitable as a result of the economic conditions affecting the club, the owners will call it a day and look for someone else to assume the ownership of the hockey team. I'm sure they will look locally, but based on the economics of building, finding a local owner may not be easy. It may be much easier to find an owner elsewhere who has desires of moving the team to where they can be a second tenant for their building. I think this is a much more likely outcome than finding local ownership, unless the citizens of Calgary want to go Green Bay Packer and publicly own the team.

I just don't see the owners coming back to the negotiation table as it appears they believe there is nothing left to negotiate. The idea is dead, and its time to move on. Now its just a matter of nature taking its course.

This is so false. Every arena negotiation has delved into this type of ploy... and they somehow convinced you that this situation is different.

They aren't moving the team. They aren't selling the team. If they sell the team, someone in Calgary will buy the team. The new owners won't move the team.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by New Era

I don't think they do. You may think Ken King is full of ####, and that's fine, but he has repeatedly stated that this chapter is over and its time to move on.

Uh huh... he seems to be talking an awful lot for someone whose "moved on". Ken Kings "moving on" comes off an awful lot like "The Lady doth Protest too much".

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

At this point I am most interested to see how the CSEG will respond after Nenshi wins the municipal election in a landslide. When their biggest, boldest play in this negotiation utterly fails and they do return to the table, under what pretence?

If the flames ever do start making threats of moving the team I'll only be able to laugh at their lack of foresight. They knew all along where the city was at in negotiations, if they really wanted to use the election as a means to put pressure on nenshi and get him voted out of office, they could have done all their recent posturing 6 months ago and started "shopping" for cities to move to now during the election. That might have actually been enough to swing things in their favour, instead they fumbled their political battle planning like they fumbled their presentation for calgaryNext. I'm really more embarrassed by the CSEC's negotiating up to this point than I am frustrated by it.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

lol, reigned in bettman, as if he just happens to spend a bunch of time in front of Calgary media of his own volition.

I mean, the caricatures being trotted out during these kinds of discussions; who dreams of this stuff?

Hotchiss doesn't have to reign in bettman because bettman WORKS FOR HOTCHKISS.

Are you saying Murray and Al and Allan are 'unable' to reel in Bettman. Bettman is an uncontrollable loose canon and if it wasn't for him, things would be running more smoothly?

The more the flames talk out of both sides of their mouths the stupider they look.

I should have clarified. My point was a guy like Hotchkiss would have foreseen the negative reaction to trotting out Bettman and would have pursued a different PR strategy.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by New Era

Nothing except the city's own economic and risk analysis reports completed back in the 90s when they were considering funding for renovations.

People in this thread need to stop arguing that there isn't economic value when the City of Calgary's own analysis concludes that value is well north of $100M (in 1993 dollars).

The Saddledome Foundation's Report is not a City of Calgary Report.

I would like to have a look though. I want to see where this number comes from and whether things like substitution etc. are considered, as many of the recent economic impact reports from Edmonton don't contain such probabilities.

I would love to review it, but its only available at..... Calgary's Library

[RM14]

I like where this thread is going...

Spoiler!

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Cappy

This is so false. Every arena negotiation has delved into this type of ploy... and they somehow convinced you that this situation is different.

That's what you're hoping. You are hoping this is just a standard negotiation ploy. What if it isn't? Are you prepared for the consequences?

They aren't moving the team. They aren't selling the team. If they sell the team, someone in Calgary will buy the team. The new owners won't move the team.

And why the hell wouldn't a new owner move the team? Is it because of the amazing earning potential an owner could have in the oldest building in the league? If a new owner buys the team, and has a building of their own in another city, it won't take much to move the franchise, especially if the current owners have washed their hands of it and there is no other option for local ownership.

Originally Posted by Parallex

Uh huh... he seems to be talking an awful lot for someone whose "moved on". Ken Kings "moving on" comes off an awful lot like "The Lady doth Protest too much".

Really? What's he said lately? Are you talking about the Chamber of Commerce, where he refused to be dragged into a discussion about the arena? Seems they are trying to move forward, but people keep asking questions about the arena issue, which he is refusing to answer.

Originally Posted by Cappy

The Saddledome Foundation's Report is not a City of Calgary Report.

I would like to have a look though. I want to see where this number comes from and whether things like substitution etc. are considered, as many of the recent economic impact reports from Edmonton don't contain such probabilities.

I would love to review it, but its only available at..... Calgary's Library

The report in question was not a Saddledome Foundation Report. It was compiled by the City of Calgary and was part of their risk analysis for the the Saddledome renovation.