He's been a member there ever since he was a kid, and he's been skating around on the rink for years. He used to skate around on the ice for hours on end. He's still a member there, see him frequently.
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History kind of contradicts the core premise of your little rant.
Except history doesn't contradict it, it supports it. If there was any support for this premise teams would fully invest in this approach and not take younger lesser known promising players, they would take the guys that they have more data on, which is clearly not the practice. I honestly can't believe anyone bought this article as having any validity. Then again, the advanced stay junkies will believe almost anything presented to them in table form.
@bandwagon, prospects without hype aren't traditionally top scorers in their league? Wut??? You really need to look over the top scorers from each league from the past 20 years to see how many guys were top scorers that had little to no hype surrounding them because it was already well known they wouldn't amount to a hill of beans. The road to the pros is littered with many a big time junior scorer that didn't have the ability to take it to the next level. I am NOT saying this is the case with Mangiapane, I am suggesting we take a more wait and see attitude with him because of this history.
Except history doesn't contradict it, it supports it. If there was any support for this premise teams would fully invest in this approach and not take younger lesser known promising players, they would take the guys that they have more data on, which is clearly not the practice. I honestly can't believe anyone bought this article as having any validity. Then again, the advanced stay junkies will believe almost anything presented to them in table form.
I don't know how you can say that the research done by the article is not valid. It's not scholarly by any means, but the methods used are proper, so valid conclusions can be drawn. You can't assume teams know these things.
Even in this draft, you have a supposedly good drafting team take a player in Logan Stanley, who will likely bust, 168 spots ahead of Stepan Falkovsky, who will also likely bust. These are two players who are about as equivalent as players can be. Teams are not any further ahead of the curve than your average blogger when it comes to the draft.
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No data in front of me but it doesn't seem like teams are shifting to taking more 18-19 year olds in the draft. Can't discount a guy or use it against him because he wasn't drafted first try.
Except history doesn't contradict it, it supports it. If there was any support for this premise teams would fully invest in this approach and not take younger lesser known promising players, they would take the guys that they have more data on, which is clearly not the practice. I honestly can't believe anyone bought this article as having any validity. Then again, the advanced stay junkies will believe almost anything presented to them in table form.
@bandwagon, prospects without hype aren't traditionally top scorers in their league? Wut??? You really need to look over the top scorers from each league from the past 20 years to see how many guys were top scorers that had little to no hype surrounding them because it was already well known they wouldn't amount to a hill of beans. The road to the pros is littered with many a big time junior scorer that didn't have the ability to take it to the next level. I am NOT saying this is the case with Mangiapane, I am suggesting we take a more wait and see attitude with him because of this history.
I have no clue what kind of crap you are trying to spout out. I guess you looked at the list of players you sent me and realized what a big mistake you made posting it.
Marcus Mcivor - 38 points in 68 games as overager
Pius Suter - 72 points in 61 games. Had a monster year in the swiss league as a 19 year old the year after he won this title.
Brady Vail - 83 points in 67 games as overager
Sam Carrick - 67 points in 68 games as overager
Garret Ross - 90 points in 61 games as overager
Colin Miller - 55 points in 54 games
Eric Locke - 60 points in 48 games as overager
Andrew Mangiapane - 106 points in 59 games
To be a top scorer and still considered the most underrated player in the league is not common at all. Wake up.
For me Andersson & Hickey are the top D prospects. Kylington has the potential to be a game breaker, but the other two D are on track to be rock solid members of our D corps sooner rather than later.
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For me Andersson & Hickey are the top D prospects. Kylington has the potential to be a game breaker, but the other two D are on track to be rock solid members of our D corps sooner rather than later.
Yeah Kylington is definitely ranked so high because of his ceiling, not his floor. Has legit top-pairing potential, but also a good chance his game won't translate to the NHL. He reminds me a lot of Erik Karlsson in the offensive zone which is very intriguing though and also why I'm okay with him being ranked so high.
Andersson and Hickey are more the Brodie type. Very mobile and dependable, but nothing flashy. Safer to say they have a higher chance of making the NHL in a bottom-4 role than Kylington does in a top-4 role.
After Andersson and Shinkaruk, I think the next group should consist of Klimchuk, Poirier, Dube, Parsons, Fox, Pollock, and McDonald. Lots of quality players right through the top 15. Then you still have guys like Phillips, Kulak, Wotherspoon, AOM, Hathaway, Pribyl and Tuulola after that. Tons of depth.
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I have no clue what kind of crap you are trying to spout out. I guess you looked at the list of players you sent me and realized what a big mistake you made posting it.
So posting facts is a mistake now?
FACT: Those were the guys that were voted most underrated player. There is no denying this or interpreting it any other way. That is the published list, decided by the coaches. No cherry picked data or misinterpretation of what was said. Must a list of the previous results.
FACT: The coaches don't have any specific criteria they vote by other than saying who they think impresses them based on that category. They don't take into consideration age or anything else. They make the selection on who impresses them in that given year.
FACT: None of the players who won this honor has amounted to much, so its relevance provides no support to an argument that guy is going to be a player because of it. Just like being the best shootout shooter doesn't mean anything. These are results that don't mean anything.
There is no agenda here except to show that receiving this honor does not mean a helluva lot. This is the Miss Congenialty of awards in the coach's poll.
Quote:
To be a top scorer and still considered the most underrated player in the league is not common at all. Wake up.
You're the one that needs to wake up. "Most underrated player" in a coach's poll means jack in the big picture. Being named the "best shootout shooter" doesn't make you a better hockey player than anyone else. It just means you are good in the skills competition. Both are irrelevant in player evaluation and projecting how good a player is going to be in the pros.
Focus on this point. We aren't talking about who is a great junior player. We're talking about who has the best potential to be a Calgary Flame and have a successful NHL career. "Most underrated player" according to the OHL coaches. That and $4.50 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.
Hey, vote for who you want and hold out as much hope as you can for this kid. I hope he succeeds as well, but I know what an uphill battle he faces. I hope you get the opportunity to rub Mangiapane's 30th NHL goal in my face in the near future, as unlikely as it seems.
Meaningless words. Typing FACT in front of words doesn't make it a fact or relevant to the discussion.
You missed the entirety of what I'm saying so there's not much point continuing this rant. I'm not sure why you're trying to use this angle to disprove Mangiapane being a legit prospect.
Also not sure why you've been rooting against this guy for so long. Cyclops is that you?
Wow what a series of brutal posts by Flash Walken re: Jankowski. Just so much wrong it's not even worth responding. I'll just continue to ignore that poster.
Meaningless words. Typing FACT in front of words doesn't make it a fact or relevant to the discussion.
You missed the entirety of what I'm saying so there's not much point continuing this rant. I'm not sure why you're trying to use this angle to disprove Mangiapane being a legit prospect.
Also not sure why you've been rooting against this guy for so long. Cyclops is that you?
I have never said that Mangiapane is not a legitimate prospect. I've said people need to temper their enthusiasm for him as his game may not translate to the pros, as many small players and big time junior scorers struggle to do. How the hell do you get that as rooting against this guy? Let me guess, because I think that Andersson has hurt himself as a prospect, because of his approach to his diet and staying in shape per the club's request, I am now rooting against the guy? Sorry dude, couldn't be further from the truth.
I am rooting for all of our prospects to achieve their upside or exceed that expectation. That doesn't mean I am not going to take a critical eye in evaluations there guys and identifying the guys who have an uphill battle. As impressed with Mangiapane's numbers I can't overlook the fact that he is small and was pass d over multiple times in his path to being drafted. Just like I am not going to overlook that fact Rasmussen Andersson, a player in a different stratosphere of potential, has hurt his stock with the hockey club. Both players are still prospects, but they each have very unique challenges they have to meet before elevating themselves as a top prospect.
If Andersson comes to camp in better shape, he regains some confidence from the team and his potential to achieve his projected potential improves. If he doesn't he likely slides further back in the pecking order as far as prospects go, and the potential for him to arrive sooner than later fades. With Mangiapane he has to show his game will translate to the pro game against men. Trust me, I am waiting to see how this plays out and am hopeful that he becomes our own little Marchand. But until he proves that this in-your-face game he played in junior, against boys, will work against men, he is a mid to low level prospect. He steps in and becomes a key cog on the AHL team, then yeah, he's a guy worthy of a top 10 slot. Is that not a reasonable approach?
Wow what a series of brutal posts by Flash Walken re: Jankowski. Just so much wrong it's not even worth responding. I'll just continue to ignore that poster.
Went with Andersson again
Yeah Andersson again for me too.
As for Jankowski, I don't see much wrong with Flash's take. He's shown little in his first three years of college before finally putting something together for their playoffs leading to a championship. Last season was okay but not anything to get excited about although he has improved his size, strength and compete level. For these reasons I put him in my top 5 behind Andersson and Shinkaruk but he's on a slow path and something I've wondered about since his freshman year, is whether he'll run out of time before he finally gets to put it together.
Curious why you or other Poirier voters would have him ahead of Shinkaruk? Emile had a disappointing season in the AHL and didn't impress in NHL when he got the chance. Shinkaruk was better in both the AHL and NHL and has higher upside imo.
I haven't given up on Poirier but he needs to take his play to another level this coming season or he's trending towards bust territory.
I hope/view last season as a bump in the road - but like his combination of skill and greasiness. And I think he will get the wake-up call and make a push in camp.
I'm perhaps overblowing Andersson's conditioning issues, but they are a red flag to me. So it came down to Shink or Poirier.
And part of me feels I'm under-rating guys like Pribyl, Mangiapie and the recent draftees that I know less about.
Tough choices.
My top 5 would have been:
1. Tkachuk
2. Gillies
3. Hickey
4. Janko
5. Kylington
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Yeah the Andersson conditioning issues are insanely overblown. Even Ryan Howse was given multiple seasons after he turned pro before he reached the end of the line. Andersson just completed a season being one of the most dominant defensemen in his league and going through three rounds of the playoffs. And he isn't even pro yet. My god. People want kids to be professionals immediately. Like, chill out.
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Harry, I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. Every day, once a day, give yourself a present. Don't plan it, don't wait for it, just... let it happen. Could be a new shirt at the men's store, a catnap in your office chair, or... two cups of good, hot, black coffee.
Howse lacked the interest/discipline to be a pro hockey player, plus his skill set was always a long shot to translate to the pro game. He was pretty limited in terms of hockey IQ and dominated the juniors solely because of his physique and shot. Once, as expected, those attributes didn't translate to the pro game, he just gave up.
I feel Andersson is a completely different beast simply because of his understanding of the game. I agree his conditioning problems are a concern, but the Flames seem intent on tackling that early (see Trelivings comments). He's only 19, there's room to grow and learn.
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As for Jankowski, I don't see much wrong with Flash's take. He's shown little in his first three years of college before finally putting something together for their playoffs leading to a championship. Last season was okay but not anything to get excited about although he has improved his size, strength and compete level. For these reasons I put him in my top 5 behind Andersson and Shinkaruk but he's on a slow path and something I've wondered about since his freshman year, is whether he'll run out of time before he finally gets to put it together.
