May 2015 Provincial Election Thread v2

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by chemgear

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...overnment-note

An internal government document shows the NDP administration can’t currently evaluate the impact of its plan to raise Alberta’s minimum wage to $15 per hour by 2018 and that “significant job loss” could be a “realistic possibility.”

We should get some NDP T-shirts made.

my suggestion:

"Keep Calm and Tax On"

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

it's a shame that greenhouses currently have to rely on being able to pay below minimum wage to be profitable

That's what happens in a hyper competitive industry like food is that's under the auspices of international competition.

One of three things happens.

1) We just stop producing that kind of food and supporting that industry completely and just rely on cheaper alternatives.

2) We find a way to make the international field play on an even playing ground, which means tarriffs and a possible trade war, and probably would create a nafta war

3) We as Canadians become willing to pay more for made in Canada labels, and see if people are willing to do that.

4) The govenment starts subsidizing industries that are being impacted, which is a bottomless pit of stupid, and I believe is also illegal under the Free Trade Deal. But I could be wrong with that.

But a lot of these so called cottage industries like green houses are being hit with multiple whammy's at the same time which means in the current environment they can't be profitable

[polak]

Is Locke actually arguing that businesses should be allowed to operate without employment standards so that they can compete with cheap and often illegal labor from California and Central America?

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by chemgear

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...overnment-note

An internal government document shows the NDP administration can’t currently evaluate the impact of its plan to raise Alberta’s minimum wage to $15 per hour by 2018 and that “significant job loss” could be a “realistic possibility.”

Here's what I really love about this....the report came out in June. In June, this was what the government was telling us....

She dismissed warnings of mass layoffs due to the 47 per cent hike in the minimum wage over three years as “fearmongering.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle25178481/

So I guess it was her own government that was fearmongering? What a dolt.

[Dan02]

I think it's definitely going to be interesting how this retraction in the Alberta economy is going to affect equalization over the next couple years. A giant slice of the equalization pie that was going to the have not provinces is now going to be missing.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Dan02

I think it's definitely going to be interesting how this retraction in the Alberta economy is going to affect equalization over the next couple years. A giant slice of the equalization pie that was going to the have not provinces is now going to be missing.

It looks like we're heading towards a nightmare scenario where every province is labeled as a have not province.

I think right now there were only four have provinces in the confederation.

BC, Alberta, Sask and Ontario.

Out of those, Alberta, Sask, and Ontario aren't going to be able to carry the burden anymore. Ontario is basically broke, Alberta is going to see a sharp reduction in revenue as is Sask due to the current economy

Quebec for example and from my undertanding Ontario are budgeting their revenues based on 20% of their dollars coming through equalization and transfers. If that slips its a disaster.

[Harry Lime]

Absolutely nothing happened with the initial raise of $1 last October. There are only two ways that people are going to lose their jobs over a higher minimum wage. The first is if the business closes it's door entirely. Capitalism would suggest that if this happens, then the void created in whatever business this is would be filled somehow to satiate demand. The second is that a business would have to let people go to 'trim the fat'. If you are working in a minimum wage setting, I'm sure that fat has been trimmed long ago. All of this is just a simple caving to political pressure. Pressure that is not coming from the electorate.

[Locke]

Does anyone else find it deliciously ironic that the NDP supporters, supposed socialists, are the first ones to throw businesses under the bus?

"Cant hack it under the crushing weight of Government regulations? Screw you! You're on your own!"

Socialism only when its convenient for them apparently.

Originally Posted by polak

Is Locke actually arguing that businesses should be allowed to operate without employment standards so that they can compete with cheap and often illegal labor from California and Central America?

There are days when I think you cant be any dumber and then you go ahead and prove me wrong. Well done.

Yeah, thats what I said, screw employment standards entirely, lets all go back to industrial revolution era Dickensian workhouses.

And consider the alternative, by not relaxing the cruel working standards in 3rd world Canada here the guy cant compete at all and we'll be directly supporting all of that illegal labour and thus allowing it to continue to thrive.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Absolutely nothing happened with the initial raise of $1 last October. There are only two ways that people are going to lose their jobs over a higher minimum wage. The first is if the business closes it's door entirely. Capitalism would suggest that if this happens, then the void created in whatever business this is would be filled somehow to satiate demand. The second is that a business would have to let people go to 'trim the fat'. If you are working in a minimum wage setting, I'm sure that fat has been trimmed long ago. All of this is just a simple caving to political pressure. Pressure that is not coming from the electorate.

The one dollar raise was probably livable for businesses like this, but they're looking at the raises heading out to 2018.

You are missing a point here by saying that capitalism states that if one business dies another one will pop up and employ people and be profitable.

But what they're aludding to is that this business sector can't survive with the outside of Canada competition, so if one of more business dies, nobody is going to step into the void to take its place if there's no way to make money on it, and too much uncertainty.

We've seen it in the manufacturing sector in Canada, when those plants go down, for the most part, there's nobody eager enough to got into that business unless it becomes government subsidized.

Captitalism states not only on a business wide concept, but on a industry segment wide concept, that if the business model can't be competitive, not only does the business die, but the sector will die.

The only way to save a market segment in the face of international competition where wages are lower, or manufacturing is cheaper overall, is to hammer a maple leaf stamp on the product and charge more for it, and hope that people are patriotic enough to spend the extra dollars on a made in Canada product.

But frankly when I go to the grocery store to buy a head of lettuce or an apple, I don't care about where it comes from. Does it taste like Lettuce or an apple, and is it free of brain parasites.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle25178481/

So I guess it was her own government that was fearmongering? What a dolt.

Wasn't the government somehow claiming that increasing the minimum wage going to actually help increase employment numbers?

[PsYcNeT]

I wonder when we'll start seeing right-wing movements opposing globalization. Most G7/8 protests seem to only be filled with hippie-types.

[RubberDuck]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Absolutely nothing happened with the initial raise of $1 last October.

Except maybe this...

Youth unemployment rate in Alberta surges to nearly 13%

http://calgaryherald.com/business/lo...s-to-nearly-13

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Wasn't the government somehow claiming that increasing the minimum wage going to actually help increase employment numbers?

Yes the logic was put more money in the pocket of the "poor" and they will spend it...

so if they spend it, are they still poor?

Basically using the minimum wage as a living wage...very very poor solution

But since they didn't campaign on the pst/carbon tax (hidden agenda) i can see why they want to up the minimum wage -

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by RubberDuck

Except maybe this...

Youth unemployment rate in Alberta surges to nearly 13%

http://calgaryherald.com/business/lo...s-to-nearly-13

Yikes

That's even more distressing.

Looks like a lot of younger workers will probably be sitting at home over the summer.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Locke

There are days when I think you cant be any dumber and then you go ahead and prove me wrong. Well done.

Yeah, thats what I said, screw employment standards entirely, lets all go back to industrial revolution era Dickensian workhouses.

And consider the alternative, by not relaxing the cruel working standards in 3rd world Canada here the guy cant compete at all and we'll be directly supporting all of that illegal labour and thus allowing it to continue to thrive.

So that's a yes? He shouldn't have to grant his employees overtime, vacation pay and statutory holiday pay because it makes it too hard to compete with international competition?

Are we going to extend this nice exemption to other industries? All of manufacturing for one?

I'd LOVE to open a sweat shop. It could take care of all that youth unemployment too.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Wasn't the government somehow claiming that increasing the minimum wage going to actually help increase employment numbers?

Yes. On one hand you had the jobs minister saying it will create jobs and be great for the economy. On the other hand, her own government via an internal government report, said that it could actually cost jobs and more importantly, that there is no actual evidence to say one way or another. We got the story that they wanted to give you, not the reality. The one thing I said all along is that this is a best guess scenario.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by polak

So that's a yes? He shouldn't have to grant his employees overtime, vacation pay and statutory holiday pay because it makes it too hard to compete with international competition?

Are we going to extend this nice exemption to other industries? All of manufacturing for one?

I'd LOVE to open a sweat shop. It could take care of all that youth unemployment too.

If I read the story right for the most part the people working there are seasonal workers, so vacation pay and stat holiday pay and to an extent over time pay shouldn't really apply.

Again this industry isn't in a vacuum, its dealing with heavy international competition where those rules certainly don't apply, so the prudent thing would be if you can't compete, then you don't compete.

The next step in places like manufacturing for example is apply the Walmart rule, where everyone is a part time worker with an hours cap, no benefits no vacation pay etc, and you just hire more of them and put the cap on all of them.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Guess I'll be buying my produce from California, South America and Mexico which even though it needs to burn lots of carbon to get here, should be cheaper because it isn't subject to a carbon tax ect...

lowering our carbon imprint one tax at a time - thanks NDP

There's actually lots of evidence that transporting food long distances by rail can be more environmentally friendly than fossil-fuel-heated greenhouses transporting their food into cities by truck (which is 10 times less efficient than rail).

So, yes, thanks NDP.

[Resolute 14]

Polak and Psychnet are teaching me a lot about the "progressive" capacity for empathy.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Absolutely nothing happened with the initial raise of $1 last October.

Do you have any data to backup this claim?

Because the early indication is that inflation in Alberta increased in October despite declining energy prices and a poor economy. Stats haven't been released for November but it's obviously too early to be making claims about the impact of the increase either way.

Anecdotally, we've seen price increases at restaurants across the city and a rash of restaurant closures where minimum wage earners would've been employed. It's really a perfect storm of a poor economy combined with the implementation of idiotic policy.