[News] Flames have not had recent contract talks with Glencross

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by neo45

I think selling off your 3rd best forward who is also a captain when you're in a playoff race is pretty Oiler sounding to me

This is so confusing. None of Hudler, Gaudreau or Monahan are captains. Or even Backlund. The captain is a defenceman.

[formulate]

This will likely be the most interesting topic of conversation leading up to the trade deadline. I'm personally very intrigued, and have no idea what Brad Treliving wants to/will do.

I'm in full agreement that if you get an outrageous offer (1st rounder or A level prospect), and Glencross agrees to move, you have to go for it. The good news is the Flames would still have to opportunity to trade lesser assets to fill that hole with a lesser UFA (someone of the Ryder, Cole, Erat, Stafford ilk), coming out ahead in assets while not losing as much manpower for a playoff push.

I, however, value Glencross' contribution to this team and their efforts for a playoff spot much higher than a 3rd round pick. The valuable experience that could be gained for our many young players from going through a meaningful stretch run (even if it results in failure) means more to me than an extra ticket to the lottery.

Say what you will about how this team wouldn't miss Glencross, or how we need to maximize an expiring asset. If Brad Treliving trades an assistant captain (who is 4th among forwards in scoring and average ice time) for a 3rd rounder or less while the Flames have a better-than-average shot at the playoffs, I won't be celebrating the asset management.

In summary, I would be in favor of trading Glencross if:
1. The Flames drop out of the playoff race.
2. The offer can't be refused, and a replacement NHLer can be acquired for a lesser cost.
3. Extenuating circumstances such as Glencross' play tailing off completely or a call-up like Baertschi, Ferland, Shore, etc completely blowing the doors off.

[JohnnyHockey]

I'm starting to be OK with this. I think it is time to move on.

[GioforPM]

formulate - I haven't done the math but I'm pretty sure on a PPG basis, Backlund is ahead of Glencross, and Colborne might be as well. So not the 4th highest offensive player, but more like the 5th or 6th.

And we all ok'd the trade of the highest scorer on the team who was a captain a couple years ago.

[dieHARDflameZ]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Bingo. If someone blows you away with an offer and Glencross waives, you have to do it. Or if you fall out of the race, you have to do it. But if not, I don't think the team is as tied to OMGUFADUMPHIM as some fans are. That is not to say they wouldn't consider dealing Glencross anyway - if they are convinced someone can and will replace his place with the team - but that the team is going to balance long term needs with the present. That means not dealing prospects and picks for the immediate, but I suspect the team is likewise not going to needlessly sacrifice the present either.

How does trading Glencross sacrifice the present in any way, shape or form? Honest question.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by transplant99

You have to crawl before you walk....and right now the team is trying to walk.

You have to walk before you run....and you need to run to win a SC.

Personally I think there are plenty of developmental steps we need to hit before we need to think seriously about running (aka making the playoffs).

Many prognosticators were thinking we would be dead last this year. While part of us is learning to crawl, a big part of us is still in the womb. Some of the players who we think are crucial for long-term success are not even on the roster yet (we have four 1st rounders who haven't even played an NHL game) and our best Center just turned 20. Chances are that a crucial part of this team's long-term success will only be drafted this year. Outside of that, we're still a small team, that while fast, would be steamrolled in the playoffs by a team like Anaheim. Our defensive is somewhat one-dimensional, and our depth is shallow.

I'm just not seeing the next step being playoffs. I think the next step is attaining Consistency (playoff teams don't lose 8 in a row), filling of holes on the RW and D, slow transfer of power from veterans like Hudler/Stajan/Glencross to guys like Monahan/Gaudreau/Backlund/Colborne etc, and the continuation of replacing the B/C players on the roster with simply better players.

All while taking away a major part of the very leadership group that has created the identity this team has.

Maybe I haven't been giving him his due, but I don't really see him being a founding father in the identity of this team. He was here with the old regime, and he was here after, and I don't seem him playing much differently, or being a voice for the organization outside of the rink. While I try not to be a Glencross-hater, he still reminds me of the floaty/lazy pre-Iginla-trade years more than I'd like.

Gio on the other hand has become a monster of a leader on and off the ice since being given the C. Hudler comes across as a guy who the young kids really look up to. A guy like Stajan seems to be a quite leader, but you always hear of him in the community as well. Even McGrattan felt like a leader who stepped up. I don't really ever see Glencross step up to speak for the team very much, and you don't really hear of they young guys mentioning his name as being a mentor.

[dieHARDflameZ]

Originally Posted by neo45

I think selling off your 3rd best forward who is also a captain when you're in a playoff race is pretty Oiler sounding to me

3rd best forward is laughable... I'd put Monahan, Backlund, Hudler and Gaudreau ahead of Glencross at this point for starters... But that's my opinion of course.

[formulate]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

formulate - I haven't done the math but I'm pretty sure on a PPG basis, Backlund is ahead of Glencross, and Colborne might be as well. So not the 4th highest offensive player, but more like the 5th or 6th.

And we all ok'd the trade of the highest scorer on the team who was a captain a couple years ago.

Colborne no, Backlund would be 3 points ahead with the same number of games played. So, sure, 5th, if you want be picky.

As for the Iginla thing, see point #1 of my last post. The Flames weren't battling for a playoff spot late that season. If we end up in the same situation, I'm perfectly okay with letting Glencross go for a lesser price.

[Roof-Daddy]

Glencross is a shooter, and IMO a terrible possession player.

I really don't think this team would miss him much at all, and I don't hate Glencross either.

[N-E-B]

I'd love Glencross resigned IF we can get him for only 2 or 3 years and no more than $4.5mil. Personally I'm a Glencross supporter and I get why he annoys people, but some people take the hate way overboard if you ask me.

[formulate]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

How does trading Glencross sacrifice the present in any way, shape or form? Honest question.

Wasn't directed at me, but...

Among forwards:

4th in points
5th in points-per-game
4th in average ice time
1st in competition level (based on average time on ice of opponents)
2nd/3rd in competition level (based on possession stats of opponents, fenwick/corsi)
4th toughest zone starts (only Bouma, Stajan, Bollig start shifts less in the offensive zone)

So he's being deployed most often in a shut-down role against top lines while managing to be among the leaders in scoring and remaining an slightly-above-average possession player.

Oh, and he's still got an 'A' on his sweater, so Bob Hartley and co. must still value the leadership he brings to the Flames.

Sure, he's not Monahan, Gaudreau, Hudler or Backlund, but you'd have to come up with a hell of an argument to convince me this team is better off without him right now.

[Caged Great]

Have the Flames really missed him since he has been out?

Not really.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Have the Flames really missed him since he has been out?

Not really.

Mason Raymond's -4 in the Anaheim game suggest otherwise.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Have the Flames really missed him since he has been out?

Not really.

Every team sustains short term injuries to even their best players, as other guys can step up for a while.

It's longer term that gets tough

[BACKCHECK!!!]

My preference would be to re-sign Glencross for as much money as he wants, but on a term that is 2-3 years max.

I think the Flames owe him a solid, and it sets a good example for the next time management asks a player to take a big pay cut on the promise that the team will make it up to them.

Kinda rings hollow if the last guy who did it got cut loose as soon as his cheap contract expired.

Plus the Flames still need him. Yeah, they've got a lot organizational depth on LW, who are set to surpass him, but until 2 or 3 of them actually DO play better than him on the ice, then there's a need for him on the roster. You might be able to make an argument that Gaudreau has surpassed him, but I'd say he more compliments Glencross, as they play a very different role in very different minutes.

But the Flames are a small and still not particularly good team who have great difficulty scoring. They still need guys like Glencross.

But don't give him more than 2 or 3 years. If he's still good then, we can re-sign him at the end of it. Giving him a big ($5m+) contract when the Flames are at the floor costs the team nothing but cash. Longer than that, and we're looking at real cap space, and I would be generous with Murray Edward's money, but I wouldn't be generous with Flames cap space when they're competing.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by formulate

Colborne no, Backlund would be 3 points ahead with the same number of games played. So, sure, 5th, if you want be picky.

As for the Iginla thing, see point #1 of my last post. The Flames weren't battling for a playoff spot late that season. If we end up in the same situation, I'm perfectly okay with letting Glencross go for a lesser price.

If Colborne isn't even with Glencross' PPG, he's pretty darn close, with way less minutes. And way younger and less costly.

[Tinordi]

"Either you make the moves I agree with or you are the OILERS!"

Calgary puck debating technique

[dieHARDflameZ]

Originally Posted by formulate

Wasn't directed at me, but...

Among forwards:

4th in points
5th in points-per-game
4th in average ice time
1st in competition level (based on average time on ice of opponents)
2nd/3rd in competition level (based on possession stats of opponents, fenwick/corsi)
4th toughest zone starts (only Bouma, Stajan, Bollig start shifts less in the offensive zone)

So he's being deployed most often in a shut-down role against top lines while managing to be among the leaders in scoring and remaining an slightly-above-average possession player.

Oh, and he's still got an 'A' on his sweater, so Bob Hartley and co. must still value the leadership he brings to the Flames.

Sure, he's not Monahan, Gaudreau, Hudler or Backlund, but you'd have to come up with a hell of an argument to convince me this team is better off without him right now.

Despite all of those fancy stats you posted above which I appreciate, I would still move him in a heartbeat if the right deal came around. I really don't think we would miss him as much as some people think.

[Hugh Jahrmes]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

Despite all of those fancy stats you posted above which I appreciate, I would still move him in a heartbeat if the right deal came around. I really don't think we would miss him as much as some people think.

If we have guys management feels are ready, I have no problem with a move. However, some users suggesting he is horrible is a bit over the top..

My main concern is many will brush off Glencross' stats as marginal, then point to guys on the farm and cite production as a qualifier. I didn't realize he's been leaned on so heavily defensively. The defensive starts against top lines, combined with his size and style of play, immediately rule out The Gaudfather as his immediate replacement (another poster mentioned they compliment each other nicely; I agree). Do you want Mason Raymond taking that on? Unlikely. Sven has been working on rounding out his game, and I believe he will be a star, honestly I haven't followed him enough to guess if he's physically and mentally ready for those responsibilities yet.

One option i had considered involved Bärtschi and Wolf's recall being not only an audition, but a bit of an experiment in using the two in a split role to eat up the minutes Glencross has been playing. Could make sense if the groundwork for a trade was already in place, even more so with rumors (not sure if these were ever confirmed by anyone with the organization) of no recent extension talks.

[Tinordi]

I honestly don't think the market for Glencross will be that good so I'm okay with keeping him.

But the goal is to build a contender not to squeek into the playoffs in a write off year. Adding to the future should continue to be the priority.