[Signing] Flames sign Deryk Engelland (3yrs, $2.9M AAV)

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

How are Smid and Englland costing the team? Calgary has no better options on D the. Those two, so by default we are better with them than with out.

And 3 years on those terms are fine, especially considering our cap situation, it will take a while to grow, and we are also a team that can burry those contract 2 years from now if need be, so I'm not even sure what the worry is with these, regardless on the opinions of the players. These contracts aren't hurting us now, and have little to no ability to do so over the next 3 years so who cares?

There's no guarantee that two other young guys in our system will do any better that Englland & Smid have done as the 3rd pairing D.

However, Engelland & Smid have been responsible for being on the ice for most goals against per 60 min. That's how they are costing the team. I get the fact that hockey is a team game and they aren't the only ones responsible for the goals against but still.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

^^^^^

Except the cap hit and the term cause no issues for this team based on our current cap situation. If we were a cap team looking to contend and were being handcuffed on making other moves because of Englland it would be an issue, but that's not our situation, so it doesn't matter.

that was his point, it's good that Engelland is the focus of our angst. Imagine if Giordano was Ference, it would instantly take us out of the playoffs.

[Enoch Root]

next year, Backlund needs a raise but that's not a problem - the floor will be the concern again, not the cap

in 16/17, Giordano, Monahan and Gaudreau are the only big names to be concerned about. Not enough to pressure the cap at all.

in 17/18 there will be Bennett, Poirier and maybe a couple others that step up

meanwhile, other contracts are always coming off (Jones, Wideman, Stajan)

the Flames have no issues with the cap in the next 2 to 3 years.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

next year, Backlund needs a raise but that's not a problem - the floor will be the concern again, not the cap

in 16/17, Giordano, Monahan and Gaudreau are the only big names to be concerned about. Not enough to pressure the cap at all.

in 17/18 there will be Bennett, Poirier and maybe a couple others that step up

meanwhile, other contracts are always coming off (Jones, Wideman, Stajan)

the Flames have no issues with the cap in the next 2 to 3 years.

*assuming no trades, free agent signings, or attempts to fill our teams current holes

[Stay Golden]

Not sure if it is Edwards, Burke or Teliving but I firmly believe that the Flames as a business will no longer add any A" list players as UFA's again.
It will be the Raymond, Engelland, Diaz, Setoguchi variety of junk.
The strength of the future Flames teams will be through drafting and that is based on scouting hope and luck.
If the Flames want to get to that next level they are going to have to include at least B" level UFA's.
On paper Raymond in 2013 was a second tier UFA but Engelland, Diaz, Setoguchi are 3rd tier UFA's the bottom of the bottom.
If Burke and Treliving continue this the Flames will continue to just come up short.
Not sure if that is their choice or they are being instructed to not pursue A" list players.
Whatever the case is they will have to hope they hit home run after home run in the drafts.
Kind of reminds me of rainbow thought of buying penny stocks hoping they hit a $.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Brodie needs to be removed from your list, he's extended beyond these.

His Cap-hit still changes next year when he makes twice as much. Good on Treliving for getting him extended for so cheap though. I would shudder to think how we'd be feeling if he was a pending free agent.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by neo45

*assuming no trades, free agent signings, or attempts to fill our teams current holes

Still lots of cap room for those. But remember, there is such a thing as a 23 man limit - if they sign other UFAs, they have to move out some players to make room. So it isn't additional contracts, it's replacing contracts.

[JiriHrdina]

Engelleland was added in part due to his leadership and presence in the room...something we have no idea on except that this team seems very tight
Not a great contract but given cap of this team not one to worry about

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

Not sure if it is Edwards, Burke or Teliving but I firmly believe that the Flames as a business will no longer add any A" list players as UFA's again.
It will be the Raymond, Engelland, Diaz, Setoguchi variety of junk.
The strength of the future Flames teams will be through drafting and that is based on scouting hope and luck.
If the Flames want to get to that next level they are going to have to include at least B" level UFA's.
On paper Raymond in 2013 was a second tier UFA but Engelland, Diaz, Setoguchi are 3rd tier UFA's the bottom of the bottom.
If Burke and Treliving continue this the Flames will continue to just come up short.
Not sure if that is their choice or they are being instructed to not pursue A" list players.
Whatever the case is they will have to hope they hit home run after home run in the drafts.
Kind of reminds me of rainbow thought of buying penny stocks hoping they hit a $.

Not sure why you would come to that conclusion.

Building through the draft does not preclude UFAs. And just because they didn't sign any A-listers this year (which was a sensible thing to do and none would have come here anyway), doesn't mean they never will again.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

One thing I remember Treliving say is that he was surprised by how ready our prospects were during training camp. If he had a better handle on our prospects he may not have signed a couple of the players that he did. It's a learning curve for him and so far he's been pretty conservative and hasn't made any blunders by trying to establish his brand on the team. I've been pretty happy with his stewardship so far.

that's what I'm talking about right there. He was conservative enough that none of those signings are going to cost the team in the long term.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Karl

There's no guarantee that two other young guys in our system will do any better that Englland & Smid have done as the 3rd pairing D.

However, Engelland & Smid have been responsible for being on the ice for most goals against per 60 min. That's how they are costing the team. I get the fact that hockey is a team game and they aren't the only ones responsible for the goals against but still.

I understand they are out there the most for goals against, I'm not arguing they aren't our "worst" d-men that dress (which is why they are the 3rd pair). But in order to cost the team, there needs to be better options to replace them with that we are choosing not to use. Smid and Englland rounding out our top 6 for example are an upgrade over the D overall last year.

There is a difference between "costing" the team and opportunity to improve the team. Sure, upgrading those two would be great, but that's easier said than done.

I also agree there is no guarantee that there aren't younger guys who could step up, but realistically, seems like Wotherspoon might be the only one that truly could be an upgrade. Maybe he isn't yet, or maybe he is and the team just wants to develop him further, regardless his time will come.

The point being, D is a weak spot on this team, we have no depth. But being overly worried about Smid and Englland is silly. We have no cap contstraints that are costing us with them, and the terms are very managable moving forward. This is a team that has very little in the pipe for D prospects, and had very little good on the roster last year outside of our current top 4. It's going to be a work in progress to improve, and Treliving did improve the D in the offseason and Burke helped with adding Smid prior. Are they the perfect solutions? Of course not. Are they upgrades and reasonable moves given our cap situation and asset situation on the back end as we work towards something better, absolutely.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

Not sure if it is Edwards, Burke or Teliving but I firmly believe that the Flames as a business will no longer add any A" list players as UFA's again.
It will be the Raymond, Engelland, Diaz, Setoguchi variety of junk.
The strength of the future Flames teams will be through drafting and that is based on scouting hope and luck.
If the Flames want to get to that next level they are going to have to include at least B" level UFA's.
On paper Raymond in 2013 was a second tier UFA but Engelland, Diaz, Setoguchi are 3rd tier UFA's the bottom of the bottom.
If Burke and Treliving continue this the Flames will continue to just come up short.
Not sure if that is their choice or they are being instructed to not pursue A" list players.
Whatever the case is they will have to hope they hit home run after home run in the drafts.
Kind of reminds me of rainbow thought of buying penny stocks hoping they hit a $.

Hopefully they will tread cautiously in this area moving forward, but I'd be shocked if that were the case. Contending teams, or teams that think they are contenders add A list UFAs on occasion, not rebuilding teams. Rebuilding teams like ours had no appeal to the A list UFA's last few seasons, and we obviously had no real use for them. So we are left filling roster spots and B and C listers.

But if this team continues to improve, obviously that dynamic changes a bit, so I'm not so sure that it's the organization writing off A list UFAs so much as it's simply a factor of our current environment.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

Not sure if it is Edwards, Burke or Teliving but I firmly believe that the Flames as a business will no longer add any A" list players as UFA's again.
It will be the Raymond, Engelland, Diaz, Setoguchi variety of junk.
The strength of the future Flames teams will be through drafting and that is based on scouting hope and luck.
If the Flames want to get to that next level they are going to have to include at least B" level UFA's.
On paper Raymond in 2013 was a second tier UFA but Engelland, Diaz, Setoguchi are 3rd tier UFA's the bottom of the bottom.
If Burke and Treliving continue this the Flames will continue to just come up short.
Not sure if that is their choice or they are being instructed to not pursue A" list players.
Whatever the case is they will have to hope they hit home run after home run in the drafts.
Kind of reminds me of rainbow thought of buying penny stocks hoping they hit a $.

I'm not sure what type of mandate there is, if any, regarding signings.

But early returns are that free agents signings in the 1-3 million per year range may not be great value given what the call-ups from the farm have shown.

It's almost like the farm is telling management to go for big A list signings because the mid-level signings are being trumped by hungry rookies.

[Stay Golden]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Not sure why you would come to that conclusion.

Building through the draft does not preclude UFAs. And just because they didn't sign any A-listers this year (which was a sensible thing to do and none would have come here anyway), doesn't mean they never will again.

Time will tell if what I posted will come to be or not. JMO, No Flames fan should waste any time dreaming ohhh we can go after this guy or that guy.
It is not going to happen. Not this offseason or the next, I do not see the Flames going to make a serious splash in the UFA market for quite a number of seasons.
Not to mention the teams that are the perennial favorites are locking up their core guys for long term. Just like thankfully the Flames did recently with Brodie.
We are fortunate that the Flames appear to have a nucleus of rookies on the team and in the AHL that are hopefully going to take the team forward.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Engelleland was added in part due to his leadership and presence in the room...something we have no idea on except that this team seems very tight
Not a great contract but given cap of this team not one to worry about

He was also added so guys like Wotherspoon and Sieloff could mature some more in Addy without having the pressure of HAVING to be in Calgary when they weren't ready. This is a valuable thing to have the ability to do both short term and long.

People simply dont consider that enough when talking about Engelland...he fills a need in more than one way.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I understand they are out there the most for goals against, I'm not arguing they aren't our "worst" d-men that dress (which is why they are the 3rd pair). But in order to cost the team, there needs to be better options to replace them with that we are choosing not to use. Smid and Englland rounding out our top 6 for example are an upgrade over the D overall last year.

Well, if this is any indication:

http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.co...a-regular-line

Surprise performer here in Rafa Diaz. He didn't face tough competition, but he didn't get preferable zone starts, either, but he sure was an asset, and he was miles better when separated from Deryk Engelland - we're talking from 43.75% CF with to 88.89% without - although it should be stressed that that's 10 minutes with, and three without.
Still, Engelland just isn't as good. He had a harder time in regards to zone starts, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the Flames were doing much better possession-wise with Diaz out there. I genuinely cannot, for the life of me, understand why Hartley defaults to Ladislav Smid with Engelland when everyone's healthy. Diaz isn't this team's #7 defenceman, he's the #5.

Then maybe even the guy we've kind of neglected is a better choice than than Engelland to put beside Smid.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I understand they are out there the most for goals against, I'm not arguing they aren't our "worst" d-men that dress (which is why they are the 3rd pair). But in order to cost the team, there needs to be better options to replace them with that we are choosing not to use. Smid and Englland rounding out our top 6 for example are an upgrade over the D overall last year.

There is a difference between "costing" the team and opportunity to improve the team. Sure, upgrading those two would be great, but that's easier said than done.

I also agree there is no guarantee that there aren't younger guys who could step up, but realistically, seems like Wotherspoon might be the only one that truly could be an upgrade. Maybe he isn't yet, or maybe he is and the team just wants to develop him further, regardless his time will come.

The point being, D is a weak spot on this team, we have no depth. But being overly worried about Smid and Englland is silly. We have no cap contstraints that are costing us with them, and the terms are very managable moving forward. This is a team that has very little in the pipe for D prospects, and had very little good on the roster last year outside of our current top 4. It's going to be a work in progress to improve, and Treliving did improve the D in the offseason and Burke helped with adding Smid prior. Are they the perfect solutions? Of course not. Are they upgrades and reasonable moves given our cap situation and asset situation on the back end as we work towards something better, absolutely.

I just hope that if the Flames can't trade Engelland and/or Smid they don't resort to burying them in the AHL for two reasons. 1) you can't hide their full cap hits in the AHL (I think you can only bury $up to $950,000 of a player's cap in the A) I'd only be okay if you can bury most if not all a player's cap hit in the A, 2) It's not a nice thing to have to do.

I can understand burying Seto, McGrattan, and even maybe later resorting to bury Diaz in the minors, but their full cap hits can be hidden. I know Engelland's full cap hit cannot be hidden and I'm pretty sure same things applies to Smid.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

One thing I remember Treliving say is that he was surprised by how ready our prospects were during training camp. If he had a better handle on our prospects he may not have signed a couple of the players that he did. It's a learning curve for him and so far he's been pretty conservative and hasn't made any blunders by trying to establish his brand on the team. I've been pretty happy with his stewardship so far.

It is too bad that he did not have access to the previous GM who had been with the team for a year and had fired the previous GM. That guy would have been helpful to provide insight. If Treliving did not know how far along our prospects were then the rest of the Flames management team who had been around for at least a year failed him and the organization.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

It's interesting that all of Treliving's moves thus far have either been really good, or really bad. Not a lot in between.

Bollig - Terrible
Raymond - Terrible
Engelland - Terrible
Setoguchi - Terrible
Diaz - Filler

Bennett - Great
McDonald - Great
Smith - Very Good
Hickey - Great
Hiller - Great
Shore for Knight - A likely NHL roster player for a guy near the bottom of the forward depth ranks.

Don't know why the Setoguchi one is terrible...they took a flier on a guy and signed him cheap hoping he would somewhat return to form...he didn't and so he is buried.

It is a "who gives a crap" move.

The others are pretty much bang on but I will wait on Raymond, he still has a chance to come around and we aren't sure what he is trying to bounce back from. That is the one thing we never know, how bad was whatever he was hit with and is it still bugging him?

[Itse]

I'm pretty comfortable in thinking that if they had better options, they would have taken those. And I'm okay with with it.

Engelland must be one happy camper. Crazy money, great term AND a good likelihood of seeing the playoffs during that contract.