Men-only barber shop controversy

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Why would you reject someone offering you money?

Doesn't make sense. Seems like a lousy business man. I remember in business school specifically, one of the fundamental principles of business. I remember it clear as day. "Accept other people's money when given to you".

Just kidding, they never actually said that. They just assumed everyone already knew it.

We make fun of people for worshipping the almighty dollar, then say that they're idiots when they make a stand for their own personal or business values.

[Mr.Coffee]

who's we?

I don't recall doing that, and if I did, it sure as hell wouldn't be over this kind of idiotic reason. People can worship whatever they want. I'm saying from a business perspective it doesn't make any sense, and it doesn't.

Here, I'll help you. Here are some reasons I could see people declining money being given to them for business:

1. If it is fake tender.
2. If it comes with illegal strings attached, would be unethical to receive, or would implicate you in a crime.
3. Your business is not physically open.

I just don't see how having a vagina aligns with anything like the above though.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Regorium

We make fun of people for worshipping the almighty dollar, then say that they're idiots when they make a stand for their own personal or business values.

I agree. It is very laudable when someone puts their values of discrimination and their desire to contravene the rights of others ahead of their business. No, wait..

We, or at least *I*, make fun of people putting their greed ahead of doing what is RIGHT. Putting toxins in the water supply to save money. Companies refusing to recall unsafe products because the cost of defending lawsuits is less than the cost to their business. Outsourcing to countries where there are no labour laws where they can have their workers work 16 hour days.

Refusing service to someone based on gender, class, race, sexuality, etc does NOT fall in that category.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

You were doing so well. You made it a few pages without being a self righteous #######. And then you slipped back to your old habits.

Why are you assuming everyone who supports this business is a white non-minority? pylon has posted some very well thought out and valid views, yet he has mentioned he's a Jewish man on this forum (correct me if I'm wrong pylon). If anyone knows anything about discrimination and hatred in the past century it's that group.

On the other hand, as a white man yourself (I assume, since you've said you've discriminated against minorities in the past), how is your view more enlightened than everyone else?

You've made two logical fallacies. You think anyone who supports a male only barbershop is a white male and has never faced any discrimination in their life.

You also think that only people who face discrimination are allowed to have an opinion on this issue. Hence the white privilege snarky remark. If this is true, is your view then irrelevant if you are in fact a white male?

That is not even close to what the point of that post is. Like you're pretty much out to lunch on every single point you've made here. If I've come across as self-righteous in these threads, you've come across as someone with either poor reading comprehension skills, or an inability to not argue against strawmen.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Why would you reject someone offering you money?

Doesn't make sense. Seems like a lousy business man. I remember in business school specifically, one of the fundamental principles of business. I remember it clear as day. "Accept other people's money when given to you".

Just kidding, they never actually said that. They just assumed everyone already knew it.

Well, I suppose if some of the regular customers go there for the fact that it is a men's barber shop, then accepting females customers could hurt business as the customers might lose faith in the establishment as specializing in men's do's. A big part of building a business is building an image.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Why are you assuming everyone who supports this business is a white non-minority? pylon has posted some very well thought out and valid views, yet he has mentioned he's a Jewish man on this forum (correct me if I'm wrong pylon). If anyone knows anything about discrimination and hatred in the past century it's that group.

As a Canadian born Jewish man, the most discrimination I've ever received is being called a kike once in junior high.

[GreenLantern]

Wow sorry to hear that, brutal. I don't understand how people can throw those terms around like they are nothing.

We get the word racism thrown around a lot here in Saskatchewan in regards to the first nations. I hear it probably 2 or 3 times a year from one, even had it said to me before once because I wouldn't let a drunk fellow cut in front of me at MacDonalds. I really wish people would consider the weight of these words before they toss them out.

[firebug]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Well, I suppose if some of the regular customers go there for the fact that it is a men's barber shop, then accepting females customers could hurt business as the customers might lose faith in the establishment as specializing in men's do's. A big part of building a business is building an image.

I guess those customers will just have to leave their misogyny at home and at church then.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by firebug

I guess those customers will just have to leave their misogyny at home and at church then.

"If I let blacks eat at my restaurant, my racist customers won't here anymore!"

[PsYcNeT]

"Those vagina-havers are going to ruin my image! Next thing you know, people are going to be expecting us to give spa treatments and pedicures!"

[FlamesAddiction]

I'm not saying it is morally right. I am just pointing out why just "accepting anyone's money" isn't necessarily the best business decision. It is often the case where morals and business do not meet on common ground.

I personally have never been to a men's barber shop, but as a man who does put some effort into my appearance (and hair is a part of that), it is really hard to find people who specialize in men's hair and do a good job with it. It seems like 99% of hair stylists only know women's styles and mail it in for men. I have a lady who cuts my hair, but she specializes in men's cuts and advertises herself as just that and it is a huge driving factor for why men insist on seeing her. While I am sure she cuts women's hair too, she still tries to keep that away from her professional image.

And Rubecube, for someone complaining about other people using straw man arguments, you sure like to do it yourself.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

And Rubecube, for someone complaining about other people using straw man arguments, you sure like to do it yourself.

Not really. I was mocking the sentiment of the argument with a parallel analogy, but I saw what your original point was. It wasn't an attempt to mock you.

[PsYcNeT]

Considering that the owner has stated they will refuse service to transsexuals as well, it's a fairly apt comparison.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I personally have never been to a men's barber shop, but as a man who does put some effort into my appearance (and hair is a part of that), it is really hard to find people who specialize in men's hair and do a good job with it. It seems like 99% of hair stylists only know women's styles and mail it in for men. I have a lady who cuts my hair, but she specializes in men's cuts and advertises herself as just that and it is a huge driving factor for why men insist on seeing her. While I am sure she cuts women's hair too, she still tries to keep that away from her professional image.

I'm 100% in agreement that it makes sense for different hairstylists/barbers to specialize in different styles (some of which may be more appropriate for either men or women but not necessarily both) and market their business accordingly, but that's not at all relevant in this particular case. She wanted a traditional men's style that has recently become popular with women as well. She went to a barbershop that publicly advertises the fact that they do the exact cut she wanted. It's not like she went to this barbershop and demanded they give her a style they have no expertise in, nor did she go to her usual salon (which probably specializes in women's styles) and ask that they give her this men's cut. She went to an appropriate business that sells the exact service she was looking for but had her patronage denied for...who knows why.

[CKPThunder]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I'm 100% in agreement that it makes sense for different hairstyles/barbers to specialize in different styles (some of which may be more appropriate for either men or women but not necessarily both) and market their business accordingly, but that's not at all relevant in this particular case. She wanted a traditional men's style that has recently become popular with women as well. She went to a barbershop that publicly advertises the fact that they do the exact cut she wanted. It's not like she went to this barbershop and demanded they give her a style they have no expertise in, nor did she go to her usual salon (which probably specializes in women's styles) and ask that they give her this men's cut. She went to an appropriate business that sells the exact service she was looking for but had her patronage denied for...who know why.

I may have missed this and I'm not doubting you but where did this business publicly advertise that they did this cut?

I agree with almost everything you have stated here but I can't find any reference to them stating that they did this style. I am sure that they do, I just can't find the reference to it.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by CKPThunder

I may have missed this and I'm not doubting you but where did this business publicly advertise that they did this cut?

I agree with almost everything you have stated here but I can't find any reference to them stating that they did this style. I am sure that they do, I just can't find the reference to it.

It's in the Star-Phoenix article linked in the OP.

"If she was coming in asking for what is traditionally known as a more feminine haircut, I think they would have more rationale (because) that's not the service they provide. But she was asking for a service that they actually promote."

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Considering that the owner has stated they will refuse service to transsexuals as well, it's a fairly apt comparison.

That's pretty much what sealed it for me. If you don't recognize trans men as men, you're pretty much an ####### in my books.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I'm 100% in agreement that it makes sense for different hairstylists/barbers to specialize in different styles (some of which may be more appropriate for either men or women but not necessarily both) and market their business accordingly, but that's not at all relevant in this particular case. She wanted a traditional men's style that has recently become popular with women as well. She went to a barbershop that publicly advertises the fact that they do the exact cut she wanted. It's not like she went to this barbershop and demanded they give her a style they have no expertise in, nor did she go to her usual salon (which probably specializes in women's styles) and ask that they give her this men's cut. She went to an appropriate business that sells the exact service she was looking for but had her patronage denied for...who knows why.

I have seen it mentioned that this girl wanted a "men's cut", but I don't think that point matters all that much from the businesses point of view.

Guys are very silly about these things, especially many young guys. Maybe it is generalizing as there seems to be many open minded guys on this forum, but many young men are concerned with promoting a masculine self-image and prefer to reflect this with very gender specific fashions and styles. If this hairstyle becomes more popular with women than men, eventually a lot of men (I would wager most), will probably stop wanting it.

It probably is a poor business model to begin with, but I can see how gender preference affects it.

[t0rrent98]

I seriously doubt she wanted to get a haircut from the barber shop. She's probably getting back at them because the Owner refused to go on a date with her. And thus she made up the excuse that she wanted a traditional haircut from a mens only barber shop.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I have seen it mentioned that this girl wanted a "men's cut", but I don't think that point matters all that much from the businesses point of view.

Guys are very silly about these things, especially many young guys. Maybe it is generalizing as there seems to be many open minded guys on this forum, but many young men are concerned with promoting a masculine self-image and prefer to reflect this with very gender specific fashions and styles. If this hairstyle becomes more popular with women than men, eventually a lot of men (I would wager most), will probably stop wanting it.

It probably is a poor business model to begin with, but I can see how gender preference affects it.

Can you elaborate on this a bit more? Am I misunderstanding your point, or are you saying that barbershops should refuse to give traditionally men's cuts to women because those styles will then fall out of favour with young men who are insecure about their masculinity?