Men-only barber shop controversy

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by The Ditch

You're a real piece of work, you are.

Why, because I don't see the widespread sexual harassment being claimed in this thread while at the gym?

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by photon

Justifiable discrimination is justifiable when the harm from the discrimination is far outweighted by the prevention of harm otherwise. We're talking about women's gyms, the harm to men is they have to go to another gym, and there's lots of gyms, the harm is small.

In this situation, the harm is small as well. The female patron can readily move along to another barber or salon within the city. Problem solved.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Considering the majority of rape is perpetrated by someone known to the victim, this number is likely quite low. Only 13% of (reported) rape victims were assaulted by strangers.

Then the likelihood of it happening in a public gym are extremely low then.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

In this situation, the harm is small as well. The female patron can readily move along to another barber or salon within the city. Problem solved.

Exactly.

I have already said there are tons of barbers that work in salons.

The service the guy was offering is not special. Many women are barbers and know how to cut a men's style hair cut since it is pretty much the easiest thing to learn out of school.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by pylon

And that kinda sums it up for me.

If we had a thread that was discussing the exclusion of Muslims from 'x' establishment because a tiny minority of them have sawed off peoples heads, this place would be in an uproar.

But it is perfectly OK to say because a small minority of men are rapists, it is 100% OK and understandable to exclude them from the same establishment.

A small number of men are rapists, but rape isn't the only type of sexual assault. And fear of sexual assault isn't even the only reason why there's a market demand for women's only gyms. Many women, even if they're not afraid of being raped at the gym, just don't want to put up with leering stares, creepy comments, or other forms of harassment when they're working out.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

There is zero evidence that women are sexually harassed at the gym more than any other setting. I would like to see a study of some sort because I go to the gym and I am failing to see all the harassment the guys in this thread are talking about.

Whether the amount of harassment is less or more than other settings is completely irrelevant. If a place exists where women can be harassed less, are they not entitled to it? Why should they have to put up with any harassment.

You will see a few guys hit on girls from time to time, but that doesn't mean it is sexual harassment and it isn't really prevalent.

And maybe girls don't want to be hit on when they go to the gym, and a lot of these meatheads don't seem to get that. It doesn't help when the girl will clearly make it obvious she's not interested and the dude won't leave her alone, and yes I've seen it happen. I also go to a university gym, so there tends to be a higher ratio of both pretty girls and meatheads than I've seen at other gyms.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by Cain

As a fat guy I don't appreciate all the looks at the gym, so I want a fat person only gym whereupon reaching a certain level of fitness you are booted out to join the others once again.

I'm not actually wading into this discussion as while I have some interest in it I lack the persistence and patience that some have and would inevitably tire of going in circles...I just wanted to make a fat guy joke (but i really do want one! damn skinny/fit people).

As a fit person when I see a fat guy at the gym the looks I am giving are inadvertently positive. I think hell yeah dude, way to be the minority and actually do something proactive. The more out of shape someone the more awsome it is when they muster the courage to get in the gym.

I'd wager very few people actually have negative judgement of you and a lot of it is in your head. Not to say your reactions are unwarranted or misplaced, just that it's possible your anxiety is skewing your interpretation. Friend of mine before I knew him got new shoes and I walked up and complimented his new shoes when we were in the gym and he was so anxiety ridden he ran off nearly crying thinking I was making fun of him. Anyways /soapbox speech

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Why, because I don't see the widespread sexual harassment being claimed in this thread while at the gym?

You probably don't notice it because you're not a woman and your definition of harassment may not match theirs.

[Sliver]

I think marketing your business as a men-only spot can work to create an exclusive feeling for patrons, complement the vibe you're shooting for (old-timey, boy's club, etc.) and is very fitting for this type of business where - in general - men and women have different needs. But, the men-only policy should be a marketing gimmick; not a written-in-stone rule. This is absolutely discrimination.

[Stanathan]

This is pretty much just a silly thought and a generalization, but all this talk about women not wanting to go to a gym because of the fear of harassment in a male infused environment makes me wonder why a woman would want to risk that and go to a well known male infused barber shop.

This is just something I had a quick chuckle at thinking about how the topic of this thread has changed into something else.

[PsYcNeT]

According to this site http://www.statisticbrain.com/sex-offender-statistics/

there are 747,408 convicted and registered sex offenders in the USA, out of a population of 317 million (48.5% male overall, or ~154 million). Lets say that out of those 747408 sex offenders, only 80% of them are male (likely a very conservative statistic based on incarceration rates), which leaves just under 600000 convicted and registered male sex offenders in the USA.

That is just under 4%, or 1 in 25 males, that are convicted and registered sex offenders. This is not counting the fact that rape is severely underreported, and even when it is, many rapists escape conviction. The numbers (even on the conservative side) are pretty horrific.

This isn't even adjusting population for those only over the age of 15.

~20.2% of the population is 0-14, so you can hack off 31 mil off the 154, and take that down to 123 mil, which raises the number of convicted males to 5%, or 1 in 20.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

I do not think most would answer it's because they feel sexually harassed at other unisex gyms, but hey I could be wrong.

And the answer doesn't seem relevant in any way. Discrimination based on gender is illegal, except in cases where the discrimination is judged to be justified. Why a small sampling of women happen to attend one specific gym wouldn't speak to why a judge would determine that the discrimination is justified for an entire jurisdiction. Polling all statistically representation of all women going to all gyms then it would seem to be more relevant.

Or better yet why not contact a professor on women's rights law and find out what the real reasons are and what information contributed to that.

Far more informative than random polls of one small group of people.

Originally Posted by pylon

That is the point I am trying to make.

What's the real number of men that are sexual predators? 1%? 2%?

So we label the other 98-99% as a potential threat because of a small scumbag minority?

But it's not about you being labelled, because you aren't. It's about most women experiencing sexism and misogyny at a high enough rate that it seriously impacts their lives, and the law deciding that a separate exercise place is a reasonable thing to avoid that. What percentage of men are perpetrating it isn't relevant, the degree to which women are impacted is what's relevant.

In addition, it doesn't have to be scumbags that perpetuate sexism and misogyny. There's a ton of sexist comments on this forum all over the place made by people that I would consider good people, they don't even realize it.

Originally Posted by pylon

Again, my issue is with the stereotyping of men, and the wide strokes that are used to paint us all as potential predators.

And again that's not the intent, because it's not about men. If there is unfair stereotyping going on (and I'm sure there is by some, there's extremes in anything) then of course that's bad. But having a separate women's gym isn't stereotyping, it's not about avoiding men, it's about avoiding harm. That the harm is coming primarily from men in that case then that's just an unfortunate reality, but it's not the reason behind the law that allows women's gyms. It's about women, not men.

[Chill Cosby]

Out of curiosity, why is equality an ideal for women, but a defensive issue for men?

Equality to me is generally concerned with the rights of others becoming equivalent to the rights of the straight, white male.

It does suggest that everyone's rights be "the same," but by "the same" it refers to the rights of straight, white men.

Focussing on the difference strictly between men and women here, why do some men use the term "equality" to deny women of beneficial specialised treatment, instead of it's purpose, which is the improved treatment of women.

There are a variety of clubs and businesses that cater specifically to men, for which even if not explicitly denied service, women do not patronise. Much like there are similar services for women. Both of these includes some more technical or very specific stuff (gender-specific clubs, segregated washrooms) but are primarily businesses that concern themselves with one sex (clothing stores, for example) for which there is a clear and obvious reason for their exclusion of the other sex. You can enter and shop these businesses despite your sex, but you need an interest in items designed for the opposite sex.

For the most part, there are not issues that are relevant to these types of businesses. They do their business and go unquestioned for good reason. However, there is the odd occurrence where a business, without specific or obvious reason, excludes a gender. Rightly so, it is questioned. Why is then, that in defence of a business with no logical reason for denying an entire gender, do men attack a business with a very clear and obvious reason for denying a gender? And what does it have to go with equality?

I don't go into SpaLady, or women's clothing stores, because they offer no services for me. There are men's fitness clubs if it's an exclusive gym experience I want, men's washrooms should the need arise, men's clothing stores (and hell, if I really want women's clothing, I can go in and buy it).

If both men and women have fitness clubs designed specifically for their sex, why "in the name of equality" are we attacking only women's rights to their own club? It's one of the few things that both men and women have of their own.

I just find that some men use "equality" as a defence against women having comparable rights. It's less about equality for them, but more about asserting control and maintaining dominance. "Don't like that you can't get your haircut there? Well then we're going to take away your gym... but don't worry, we're keeping ours."

It's very misogynistic in my opinion, and worse, it's using a misplaced sense of equality to justify the misogyny.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by pylon

If we had a thread that was discussing the exclusion of Muslims from 'x' establishment because a tiny minority of them have sawed off peoples heads, this place would be in an uproar.

But it is perfectly OK to say because a small minority of men are rapists, it is 100% OK and understandable to exclude them from the same establishment.

Jesus Christ, you're really after the false equivalencies today, aren't you? This isn't about the number of men who are perpetrators, it's about the number of women who are victims. The equivalence would be if 1 in 4 people were getting their heads hacked off by Muslims in every single corner of the world everyday, then yes people would probably have a right to decapitation-free zones.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Stanathan

This is pretty much just a silly thought and a generalization, but all this talk about women not wanting to go to a gym because of the fear of harassment in a male infused environment makes me wonder why a woman would want to risk that and go to a well known male infused barber shop.

This is just something I had a quick chuckle at thinking about how the topic of this thread has changed into something else.

I'm going to go out on a limb and just guess it's because women aren't one monolithic entity. They're actually each individual people with varying comfort levels, life experiences, and sensitivities.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by AcGold

I'd wager very few people actually have negative judgement of you and a lot of it is in your head.

Oh undoubtedly man, I know that most people aren't like that.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Whether the amount of harassment is less or more than other settings is completely irrelevant. If a place exists where women can be harassed less, are they not entitled to it? Why should they have to put up with any harassment.

Nobody at all is saying they should put up with harassment. I do believe they are entitled to it which is why I am mostly arguing that the barber is also entitled to cut men's hair only. My argument is you can't have it both ways. Have your Women's gym and then complain about a barber shop who only does men's hair. The guy cutting hair is not sexist, he just doesn't know how/or doesn't want to cut a women's hair. A women's hair takes much longer or might need prolonged use of scissors which barbers try to minimize the use of.

And maybe girls don't want to be hit on when they go to the gym, and a lot of these meatheads don't seem to get that. It doesn't help when the girl will clearly make it obvious she's not interested and the dude won't leave her alone, and yes I've seen it happen. I also go to a university gym, so there tends to be a higher ratio of both pretty girls and meatheads than I've seen at other gyms.

No women should deal with that, but honestly those instances are pretty rare. I used to work out at Mount Royal every day at school and rarely did I see that happen. I work out at Gold's now and I feel the men try to intimidate other men more than they hit on women.

I like that idea of having a gym for people who don't want to be in that environment because frankly I am sick of it myself so I do understand why women would be as well.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by photon

No it isn't because it's not about you. If I am harmed constantly and I try to go somewhere to avoid that harm, it's about me, my experience, my being harmed, and my actions to avoid being harm.

Of course it is different. Again the law doesn't deal in black and white, it considers many different factors, and degree is important. A better analogy to yours would be men being pulled off the street for random semen tests to see if it matches any rape cases.

Justifiable discrimination is justifiable when the harm from the discrimination is far outweighted by the prevention of harm otherwise. We're talking about women's gyms, the harm to men is they have to go to another gym, and there's lots of gyms, the harm is small.

If you disagree with the assessment

This is a good post. I'd invite you to join some fathers forums and talk to the men that are treated differently because they are men. Because they can't afford lawyers so they can afford equality in family court. They get the "responsibility" of paying a large fee monthly but are removed from any responsibility as an actual parent. They see their kids 4 days out of every month. Except when "oops" the ex let the kids have a sleep over that weekend... There is a lot of harm here to children and parents and it's not changing. Watch Divorce Corp for a look into western style family justice. It shows the harm and how there are no actions taken to avoid it. It even shows us countries, like Thor's Iceland, for example, that don't have divorce court and are equal and fair.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Nobody at all is saying they should put up with harassment. I do believe they are entitled to it which is why I am mostly arguing that the barber is also entitled to cut men's hair only. My argument is you can't have it both ways. Have your Women's gym and then complain about a barber shop who only does men's hair. The guy cutting hair is not sexist, he just doesn't know how/or doesn't want to cut a women's hair. A women's hair takes much longer or might need prolonged use of scissors which barbers try to minimize the use of.

You need to quit repeating these two things as if their facts.

And, no, the barber is not entitled to cut men's hair only. It's against the law, as photon has pointed out many times. The reason it's against the law is because there was a time when arbitrary discrimination was allowed, and it was pretty unpleasant for anyone who wasn't a white, straight man. Now if this man wasn't comfortable cutting this woman's hair because of technical expertise, then it's reasonable for him to say so, but there's no evidence that that's what happened here. It sounds, from the article (and this is only one side), that he refused to cut her hair solely on the basis of her gender, which again, is illegal.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

There are men's fitness clubs

Bow Valley is not a men's only fitness club though. They are a fitness club for both men and women but have separate facilities for both genders. Both sexes share a common dining, lounge and racquet sports area.