Men-only barber shop controversy

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Stanathan

http://www.slate.com/articles/double...assaulted.html



Men know what being assaulted sexually is like, it's not savd for women only.

No one was making that argument. Sexual assault against men is a huge problem. However, I believe the majority of those crimes are men on men, so again we come back to the main question of why are so many men assaulting women and children. And that's not letting women who commit these crimes off the hook. If you want to have that conversation, then start a new thread and we can have it.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I agree, but that's not story they've been fed their entire lives when they're told not to walk down dark streets, drink too much at the bar, wear skimpy clothing, etc. And we're also not just talking about assault here. Harassment at the gym is an issue for many women.

Fair enough, and I have already said I really didn't care that much about all women gyms because yes women are harassed at the gym, but I don't believe it is more or less than the bar on a Saturday night.

My issue is with this womea thinking she has the right to have her hair cut by a barber who likely has never cut a woman's hair before. A man's head and a woman's head are not alike and a mechanic wouldn't work on a BMW if all he has ever worked on was a Honda. Not worth the risk for him. No one likes a mad customer.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by Stanathan

http://www.slate.com/articles/double...assaulted.html



Men know what being assaulted sexually is like, it's not savd for women only.

Sexual assault is horrible for both sexes when it happens and it does happen to both. It's odd how that gets ignored. I even shared my experience (which was very difficult for me) and it was ignored. However, can we not derail the thread? It really isn't about sexual assault.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Fair enough, and I have already said I really didn't care that much about all women gyms because yes women are harassed at the gym, but I don't believe it is more or less than the bar on a Saturday night.

Why is that your baseline? Women have the right not be harassed wherever they go. If enough women feel they can't workout in a gym without being harassed, then why can't they start their own gym? Who is this hurting exactly?

My issue is with this womea thinking she has the right to have her hair cut by a barber who likely has never cut a woman's hair before. A man's head and a woman's head are not alike and a mechanic wouldn't work on a BMW if all he has ever worked on was a Honda. Not worth the risk for him. No one likes a mad customer.

This is pure speculation on your part. It's not fact, and there's no evidence to suggest this is the case.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

Sexual assault is horrible for both sexes when it happens and it does happen to both. It's odd how that gets ignored. I even shared my experience (which was very difficult for me) and it was ignored. However, can we not derail the thread? It really isn't about sexual assault.

If yours is the one I'm thinking of, it certainly wasn't ignored by me.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Is this a serious question? I'm going to give you a few minutes to think about why that's not the same.

The only difference I can think of is that in my imagined case, the store is refusing service to a group of people based on fear of damage due to past occurances of violence from that said group of people.

And that Curves refuses service to a group of people based on their patrons' fear due to past occurances of violence from that said group of people.

Other than that, it still looks like discrimination to me. Not saying that women only gyms don't make sense, and I'm not even sure I agree with myself or if I even have a point. It was just a question because, to me, there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference.

So maybe enlighten me.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

If 1 in 4 cars were sold from your lot today, does that mean every one of your salesmen sold 1 in 4 cars? I sincerely hope you're just playing stupid.

Originally Posted by MarchHare

No, you're not reading the stats correctly. Statistically, one in four women are the victims of sexual assault during their life, but that doesn't mean one in four men are rapists. It's a comparatively smaller percentage of men who are responsible for most assaults (i.e. repeat offenders).

That is the point I am trying to make.

What's the real number of men that are sexual predators? 1%? 2%?

So we label the other 98-99% as a potential threat because of a small scumbag minority?

Again, my issue is with the stereotyping of men, and the wide strokes that are used to paint us all as potential predators.

[Cain]

As a fat guy I don't appreciate all the looks at the gym, so I want a fat person only gym whereupon reaching a certain level of fitness you are booted out to join the others once again.

I'm not actually wading into this discussion as while I have some interest in it I lack the persistence and patience that some have and would inevitably tire of going in circles...I just wanted to make a fat guy joke (but i really do want one! damn skinny/fit people).

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Fair enough, and I have already said I really didn't care that much about all women gyms because yes women are harassed at the gym, but I don't believe it is more or less than the bar on a Saturday night.

First, no woman should ever be harassed anywhere, period.

Second, there's a huge difference in the environments of a singles bar on a Saturday night, where it's a reasonable assumption that most patrons are looking to meet a potential romantic partner*, and a gym where most patrons are just looking to mind their own business while they get a workout in peace.

*Once again, that doesn't mean creepy behaviour or harassment is at all acceptable even at a bar or nightclub.

[photon]

Originally Posted by pylon

That is a stereotype, perhaps the very definition of it, it is making a massive assumption.

No it isn't because it's not about you. If I am harmed constantly and I try to go somewhere to avoid that harm, it's about me, my experience, my being harmed, and my actions to avoid being harm.

Remember we're only talking about a women's only gym, no one is proposing segregation of genders or something.

Originally Posted by pylon

That is no different than pulling aside all brown people in a security line in an airport, because a some brown people hi-jacked planes 10 years ago. "One brown person did it, so we better frisk all of them, because brown people are more likely to blow up a plane."

It is just as divisive. And just as wrong.

Of course it is different. Again the law doesn't deal in black and white, it considers many different factors, and degree is important. A better analogy to yours would be men being pulled off the street for random semen tests to see if it matches any rape cases.

Justifiable discrimination is justifiable when the harm from the discrimination is far outweighted by the prevention of harm otherwise. We're talking about women's gyms, the harm to men is they have to go to another gym, and there's lots of gyms, the harm is small.

If you disagree with the assessment

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

And nobody said it was.

This is about equality.

Equality for you. Equality for others is just as important. As I said if you want equality, worry about the problem, not the symptom.

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

Also how come rubecube, wittynickname, photon didn't comment on the women only hair salon posted a while back?

Because I'm not discussing that, I'm discussing something else. The road you seem to be going down is a fallacy, consider a different road.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Why is that your baseline? Women have the right not be harassed wherever they go. If enough women feel they can't workout in a gym without being harassed, then why can't they start their own gym? Who is this hurting exactly?

Nobody at all, but as long as they admit the fear is not rationale. You will walk into that gym just like thousands of other women do in Calgary every single day and you will walk out just fine without being sexually harassed or raped. They can have their own gyms just don't complain when a barber shop doesn't or can't cut their hair.

This is pure speculation on your part. It's not fact, and there's no evidence to suggest this is the case.

Of course it is speculation that is why I said "likely". Most men who turn barbers stay in the barber business. And extremely unlikely they have cut a men's style hair cut on a woman before.

[Stanathan]

Originally Posted by pylon

That is the point I am trying to make.

What's the real number of men that are sexual predators? 1%? 2%?

So we label the other 98-99% as a potential threat because of a small scumbag minority?

Again, my issue is with the stereotyping of men, and the wide strokes that are used to paint us all as potential predators.

Kind of reminds me of all the ignorant hate for Muslims as if they are all Islamic Extremists. There are bad people, some of them happen to be men, some follow this religion or that religion, some are republicans, democrats, liberals, conservatives, etc. It really isn't right to prejudice or stereotype any kind of demographic just because a small portion of said demographic are terrible human beings.

If a woman wants me to cut her hair with a man's style, I'll do it, if she is a jerk, I won't. If I want to go to Spa Lady, I expect them to let me in, if I'm a jerk, they should boot me out. We should all treat each-other as individuals and not as a part of a demographic and deal with the bad people with extreme measures.

EDIT: Your post also got me thinking of how many men are being sexually assaulted by women, especially women in a position of authority and trust, and refuse to say anything about it because they should want to have women do things to them. Kind of like Charlie Day on Horrible Bosses with Jennifer Aniston. It's a huge joke because she is attractive and he should want her to want that. Can't imagine a woman getting raped and people laughing at her and telling her she should want it because the guy is handsome. I understand that it's not balanced, I just think every man should be looked at as a predator and every woman as the prey.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by photon

Because I'm not discussing that, I'm discussing something else. The road you seem to be going down is a fallacy, consider a different road.

Forgive me for asking some of the more vocal/well written folks on this topic their opinion on a similar matter. Clearly I overstepped by asking about it.

[FanIn80]

Why is it so difficult to understand that sometimes men just want to be left alone? It's a safe place for a man to just go and be a man for an hour, without worrying about anything.

Maybe it's a cigar and a glass of bourbon with your feet up and watching the ball game for an hour, while you're getting your hair cut in relative peace and quiet?

Maybe it's a place to go for someone who's suffered some sort of abuse at the hands of a woman, and is now just thankful that there's at least one place he can go and feel completely relaxed, other than his own one-room apartment.

Or it could be a small place where everyone knows each other and the clientele is really more like a large club where you'll some guys at a table playing cards, or some other guys watching a football game. A place where guys don't always go just to get a haircut, but can go just to hang out for an hour or two and socialize.

The point being, men have the same equal right to feel safe as women do. End of story.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Cain

As a fat guy I don't appreciate all the looks at the gym, so I want a fat person only gym whereupon reaching a certain level of fitness you are booted out to join the others once again.

I'm not actually wading into this discussion as while I have some interest in it I lack the persistence and patience that some have and would inevitably tire of going in circles...I just wanted to make a fat guy joke (but i really do want one! damn skinny/fit people).

To continue your derail, I once knew a guy who very seriously wanted to open a business that he called the "Pre-gym". It was pretty much exactly what you described. Maybe he was on to something afterall?

Basically, his idea was that really out-of-shape people (either obese or skinny weaklings) who were too intimidated to go to a standard gym would have a place where they could train up to a reasonable baseline before then switching to a regular fitness centre.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

First, no woman should ever be harassed anywhere, period.

Second, there's a huge difference in the environments of a singles bar on a Saturday night, where it's a reasonable assumption that most patrons are looking to meet a potential romantic partner*, and a gym where most patrons are just looking to mind their own business while they get a workout in peace.

*Once again, that doesn't mean creepy behaviour or harassment is at all acceptable even at a bar or nightclub.

There is zero evidence that women are sexually harassed at the gym more than any other setting. I would like to see a study of some sort because I go to the gym and I am failing to see all the harassment the guys in this thread are talking about.

You will see a few guys hit on girls from time to time, but that doesn't mean it is sexual harassment and it isn't really prevalent.

[The Ditch]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

There is zero evidence that women are sexually harassed at the gym more than any other setting. I would like to see a study of some sort because I go to the gym and I am failing to see all the harassment the guys in this thread are talking about.

You will see a few guys hit on girls from time to time, but that doesn't mean it is sexual harassment and it isn't really prevalent.

You're a real piece of work, you are.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by pylon

What's the real number of men that are sexual predators? 1%? 2%?

Considering the majority of rape is perpetrated by someone known to the victim, this number is likely quite low. Only 13% of (reported) rape victims were assaulted by strangers.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Stanathan

Kind of reminds me of all the ignorant hate for Muslims as if they are all Islamic Extremists. There are bad epople, some of them happen to be men, some follow this religion or that religion, some are republicans, democrats, liberals, conservatives, etc. It really isn't right to prejudice or stereotype any kind of demographic just because a small portion of said demographic is a terrible human being.

If a woman wants me to cut her hair with a man's style, I'll do it, if she is a jerk, I won't. If I want to go to Spa Lady, I expect them to let me in, if I'm a jerk, they should boot me out. We should all treat each-other as individuals and not as a part of a demographic and deal with the bad people with extreme measures.

And that kinda sums it up for me.

If we had a thread that was discussing the exclusion of Muslims from 'x' establishment because a tiny minority of them have sawed off peoples heads, this place would be in an uproar.

But it is perfectly OK to say because a small minority of men are rapists, it is 100% OK and understandable to exclude them from the same establishment.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Maybe it's a cigar and a glass of bourbon with your feet up and watching the ball game for an hour, while you're getting your hair cut in relative peace and quiet?

That's a can o' worms!