Men-only barber shop controversy

[V]

Originally Posted by pylon

That is no different than pulling aside all brown people in a security line in an airport, because a some brown people hi-jacked planes 10 years ago.

One in four women are assaulted. Is that similar to one terrorist attack ten years ago? Really? You could have come up with something a little more relevant.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Women are also more likely to become upset with a bad hair cut than a man. I have seen women cry over hair cuts... I have yet to see a man do that.

I had my head shaved when I was 6, didn't like it, and cried after.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by MattyC

How is that different than a shop refusing to serve black people because they have had black people rob their store before?

"Rather not take the chance."

Is this a serious question? I'm going to give you a few minutes to think about why that's not the same.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by V

One in four women are assaulted. Is that similar to one terrorist attack ten years ago? Really? You could have come up with something a little more relevant.

How many are by men they know??? And not total random strangers at the gym?

[photon]

Originally Posted by pylon

Photon, I normally agree with you, and what you have to say, but you keep saying that.

Because it isn't. You keep framing the issue to be about you, when it isn't.

Originally Posted by pylon

By saying that, you are saying that my rights and reputation should be affected by a stereotype cast on all men, because of a minority of pigs. It is not about me, it is about everyone.

But your rights and reputation aren't being effected, because it's not about you. You're making it about yourself but it's about how women are treated in our society and how they're impacted.

As I've also kept saying, it's not a question of your rights being affected. Of course they are being affected, that's what justifiable discrimination means.

But it's not about you, it's justifiable because the impact to your rights, your dignity, is minimal (as there are many other gyms), and justifiable because of the impact on the actual people that are being harmed. Another factor in determining if it's justified is if the harm the discrimination is meant to mitigate is real, and it is. If there was real equality in society, women only gyms would not be justifiable and wouldn't be allowed (though the whole question wouldn't even come up).

It's not a stereotype cast on all men, it's acknowledging the reality and dealing with reality vs. an idealized society that doesn't exist. No one is stereotyping you, because it's not about you, it's about the harm women experience and avoiding it.

Originally Posted by pylon

In a weird way, my argument argues more for equality, than a lot of other posts in this thread.

At the expense of women. I'll say it again, in a society where gender equality truly existed or was even close to existing, you would be completely right. But you're into a kind of nirvana fallacy.

Originally Posted by pylon

Equality means equal for everyone, that is what I am arguing for. However having men's or women's only businesses is anything but equality.

But things aren't equal, and you can't just say "ok everyone's equal" and expect society to overcome centuries or millennia of inequality. The problems are systemic and will self perpetuate regardless of what the laws say. Either we wait further centuries for the social structures to incorporate blacks and women naturally, or we take more progressive action to make it happen sooner despite the systems and individuals digging in their heels. One has a lower human suffering cost than the other.

The right way to frame something like women's gyms is not the gym itself, but to ask why such a thing exists in the first place.

It's a symptom, and treating the symptoms is silly. If you want equality, instead treat the problem to bring about equality, not the symptom of inequality. Which is done by educating and changing how society treats women.

[pylon]

So if I am reading these stats clearly, 25% of men are rapists?

1 in 4 men on this site have committed a sexual crime?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

How many are by men they know??? And not total random strangers at the gym?

Around 73-75%. What's your point? Women are told all the time they shouldn't be out drinking or walking down the street alone because they might be assaulted by a stranger. What makes the gym any different?

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yes, the woman who went to school and does this for a living knows less about the business than you, random dude on the internet with probably zero background. You're doing a great puckluck imitation today.

What? I do have experience buddy, I have cut hair for 10 years before a bad back made me change professions.

There are plenty of women who are barbers and work out of salons.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by rubecube

It's not just one person 10 years ago, it's millions of people every god damn day. 1 in 4, 25%, that is a lot of god damn women being assaulted on a daily basis. That is a lot of men assaulting women on a daily basis, and yet when women don't take steps to protect themselves, they basically get told "Well you clearly didn't take enough steps to protect yourself, your fault," and now when they are taking steps to protect themselves it's "Well now you're stereotyping all men." They are figuratively screwed either way.

I was wondering where you got your facts from, so I went here

http://www.canadianwomen.org/facts-about-violence

Half of all women in Canada have experienced at least one incident of physical or sexual violence since the age of 16.

67% of all Canadians say they personally know at least one woman who has been sexually or physically assaulted

Also another stat I found interesting.

According to police, men (49%) and women (51%) in Canada are equally at risk of violent victimization. However, men are much more likely to be assaulted by a stranger or someone from outside their family, while women are much more likely to be assaulted by someone they know

I guess the question is what % of assaults on women are by someone they know. If that percentage is large then that would put a damper on the "safe place" arguement.

Also how come rubecube, wittynickname, photon didn't comment on the women only hair salon posted a while back?

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Around 73-75%. What's your point? Women are told all the time they shouldn't be out drinking or walking down the street alone because they might be assaulted by a stranger. What makes the gym any different?

My point is pretty clear. It's not random strangers women have to be scared about.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by pylon

So if I am reading these stats clearly, 25% of men are rapists?

If 1 in 4 cars were sold from your lot today, does that mean every one of your salesmen sold 1 in 4 cars? I sincerely hope you're just playing stupid.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by pylon

So if I am reading these stats clearly, 25% of men are rapists?



1 in 4 men on this site have committed a sexual crime?

Well, considering rape isn't the only sexual crime, you're two sentences would already contradict each other.

But I believe the stats suggest 1 in 4 women are victims of a sexual crime.

You do have a funny way of focussing on men, don't you?

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

Not in the state of PA. Barbers get different, specialized training, and stylists get different training. You do not actually do hair for a living, I'd imagine, so please stop condescending to me about my career, thanks.




Discrimination is not being able to go to one place? One single place that is a safe space for women?

I don't think you actually know what discrimination is.

Well I was talking about Calgary, no idea what they teach you in the state of PA.

Here, you go to school and mostly learn about useless stuff that barbers will never need, but after you decide where you want your training and in what expertise.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by pylon

So if I am reading these stats clearly, 25% of men are rapists?

1 in 4 men on this site have committed a sexual crime?

No, you're not reading the stats correctly. Statistically, one in four women are the victims of sexual assault during their life, but that doesn't mean one in four men are rapists. It's a comparatively smaller percentage of men who are responsible for most assaults (i.e. repeat offenders).

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

My point is pretty clear. It's not random strangers women have to be scared about.

I agree, but that's not story they've been fed their entire lives when they're told not to walk down dark streets, drink too much at the bar, wear skimpy clothing, etc. And we're also not just talking about assault here. Harassment at the gym is an issue for many women.

[nik-]

I feel CP has changed over these last few days.

I want to go back to the "good old days" of CP. The days where we hated minorities, gays and women

[Arya Stark]

It would be interesting to do a case study at a Spa Lady and find out why women choose that place instead of Gold's. I can easily do that if my mom agrees.

I do not think most would answer it's because they feel sexually harassed at other unisex gyms, but hey I could be wrong.

[Stanathan]

Originally Posted by V

One in four women are assaulted. Is that similar to one terrorist attack ten years ago? Really? You could have come up with something a little more relevant.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double...assaulted.html

ast year the National Crime Victimization Survey turned up a remarkable statistic. In asking 40,000 households about rape and sexual violence, the survey uncovered that 38 percent of incidents were against men.

Men know what being assaulted sexually is like, it's not savd for women only.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

So if you own a foreign car that needs specific parts, you're going to demand that an autobody that doesn't deal with those parts/makes of vehicle fix your car anyway?

The service did exist where she went. She wanted a men's cut. They do men's cuts. Other salons could've cut her hair, sure, but not in the way she wanted it cut. Haircutting is not that easy, kids. It involves skill and education and hard work and talent.

I think this gets overlooked a fair bit.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

I was wondering where you got your facts from, so I went here

http://www.canadianwomen.org/facts-about-violence

I guess the question is what % of assaults on women are by someone they know. If that percentage is large then that would put a damper on the "safe place" arguement.

I posted a little while back that it's about 73-75% from what I've gathered. Again though, we're not just talking about assault here. These places are also supposed to be safe from harassment, which can be both verbal and silent (think the creepy leering dudes who think they're really smart when they check girls out in the mirror).

Also how come rubecube, wittynickname, photon didn't comment on the women only hair salon posted a while back?

Didn't see the story in question, but if there isn't a legitimate reason why they can't cut men's hair then yes I would agree it's wrong.