Back to my original post calling Israel a pariah state. Still seem crazy captain yooh?
A pariah state? A pariah state with close relationships to Germany (the most powerful country in the EU), the USA (the most powerful country in the world), and India (soon to be the world's largest country).
I don't think you know what the word pariah means. BTW the computer processor you are using to type that was probably designed by an Israeli.
Hitting the UN school is nothing more than a message the day after after the UN Human Rights Council wanted to open up an investigation into possible israeli war crimes. In every conflict Israel has always hit some symbol of the UN after some statements were made against it. No surprise here.
Or maybe UN buildings are everywhere and Hamas purposely fights around them.
The IDF's statement:
Quote:
In recent days, Hamas has fired rockets from an area of Beit Hanoun where an UNRWA shelter is located. Last night, we told Red Cross to evacuate civilians from UNRWA's shelter in Beit Hanoun btw 10 am & 2 pm. UNRWA & Red Cross got the message. Hamas prevented civilians from evacuating the area during the window that we gave them. Today Hamas continued firing from Beit Hanoun. The IDF responded by targeting the source of the fire. Also today, several rockets launched from Gaza toward Israel fell short and hit Beit Hanoun.
Both the UN and the IDF acknowledge the warning:
Quote:
Both the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and Chris Guinness, the UNRWA spokesman, confirm that the IDF had asked UNRWA to evacuate the Beit Hanoun school (Hamas' official position on the strike is not yet clear). The IDF was planning to target what it claimed were nearby Hamas rocket launchers.
Quote:
Both the IDF and UNRWA spokesperson also agree that Hamas rockets were firing from the area. Sometimes, Hamas rockets fall short of their intended Israeli targets.
It's a war. You might no think it's just, but this is not proof of "sending the UN a message". Based on current evidence, it was probably a tank shell that hit the building. However, it could just as easily have been a Hamas rocket.
Regardless, Israel's reaction to the murders of the three teens was not in proportion to the act committed. In that case, their reaction certainly WAS the "incorrect one."
The kind of proof your asking for won't exist publicly, because the Palestinians do not allow for an open press.
Quote:
A senior Palestinian intelligence official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media, said the two suspects are believed to be hiding and that Palestinian security forces were also searching for them.
He said the fact that the two men have been missing since the kidnapping is "clear evidence they have links with the abduction."
So basically when the Palestinian side silences people who speak out against the murderers, where do you expect this kind of proof to come from. You accept that Israel should be held to a higher standard, yet refuse to acknowledge that they are dealing with a group that does not act at that same standard.
Or maybe UN buildings are everywhere and Hamas purposely fights around them.
The IDF's statement:
Both the UN and the IDF acknowledge the warning:
It's a war. You might no think it's just, but this is not proof of "sending the UN a message". Based on current evidence, it was probably a tank shell that hit the building. However, it could just as easily have been a Hamas rocket.
What you conveniently leave out,
"Gunness posted: "Precise co-ordinates of the UNRWA shelter in Beit Hanoun had been formally given to the Israeli army. ... " Then minutes later, he tweeted: "Over the course of the day UNRWA tried 2 coodinate with the Israeli Army a window for civilians 2 leave & it was never granted. ..."
So basically when the Palestinian side silences people who speak out against the murderers, where do you expect this kind of proof to come from. You accept that Israel should be held to a higher standard, yet refuse to acknowledge that they are dealing with a group that does not act at that same standard.
The only thing that can be gathered from the link you provided is that the Palestinian intelligence officer wasn't authorised to speak to the media. You know what other countries impose those restrictions on their officers during sensitive times? Canada, USA, England, Sweden, etc.
No where does anything remotely like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall
The Palestinians government funded and hid the murderers of the Israeli teens.
So I would generally suggest you not make claims that cannot be backed up with any proof at all. Hamas is a genuinely despicable terrorist organisation, so there is no reason to make things up or make statements that you can't fact-check, as all they do is hurt other seemingly valid points that you then attempt to make.
I don't think you know what the word pariah means. BTW the computer processor you are using to type that was probably designed by an Israeli.
This reveals some insight into the psychology of the ardent defenders of Israel. So forged and hardened they've become after years of defending their existence they then take any criticism as some of type of deeply pointed attack to their core. Am I saying Israel doesn't deserve to exist? No.
My line throughout this thread has been consistent and straight forward. The Israeli government is run by a bunch of bloodthirsty right wing fanatics that are not only pursuing but internalizing the reality of constant war. There is no peace for these nuts.
There's a line that most defenders such as yourself seem to not understand. Israel is not above reproach because of the historical hardship they faced. They are now the regions dominant power and are wielding that power in increasingly violent and indefensible ways. The fact that you feel urged to justify everything they do with the laziest of retorts, such as an Israel invented something you use therefore you should ignore the 700 dead civilians, many of them children and come to our side. Or, that other side of terrorists shoots a bunch of ineffective rockets at us meaning we can bomb schools and hospitals in retaliation, demonstrates just how bad your arguments are.
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Or, that other side of terrorists shoots a bunch of ineffective rockets at us meaning we can bomb schools and hospitals in retaliation, demonstrates just how bad your arguments are.
What do they do?
Ignore them? Allow the attacks? I know they over-react, but what other options are there? This is the one thing about Israel's detractors that trips me up. All things considered, I am a left wing liberal on every issue except Israel it seems. I just can't figure out what people expect Israel to do. Just take it?
Ignore them? Allow the attacks? I know they over-react, but what other options are there? This is the one thing about Israel's detractors that trips me up. All things considered, I am a left wing liberal on every issue except Israel it seems. I just can't figure out what people expect Israel to do. Just take it?
have a longer memory than a few weeks or months or 10 years, this occupation has been going on for over 60 years, the oppression and racism and fascism of the zionist state has produced this response. what do you expect the native inhabitants of that part of the world to sit there and take it?
Ignore them? Allow the attacks? I know they over-react, but what other options are there? This is the one thing about Israel's detractors that trips me up. All things considered, I am a left wing liberal on every issue except Israel it seems. I just can't figure out what people expect Israel to do. Just take it?
Sorry but I have a hard time taking your opinion seriously when you make it so simply black versus white. Hamas had been moderating prior to this latest round of violence. Infact, Hamas and Fatah were coordinating more than they ever had to extend diplomatic channels and open up talks with Israel. There's been alot of discussion around some base level motivations for Israel in this conflict. Such as that they were threatened by this new position. And that should legitimate diplomatic talks start up again, Bibi's coalition of war fanatics wouldn't be able to hold together exposing Israeli weakness.
Fundamentally, though, to answer your question, Israel needs to act like a responsible power and seek a two-state solution for peace. That's the only alternative to violence. Either you're working toward that, or, as was chosen in this case and since Bibi took power, you extend perpetual war. War is peace, slavery is strength.
Ignore them? Allow the attacks? I know they over-react, but what other options are there? This is the one thing about Israel's detractors that trips me up. All things considered, I am a left wing liberal on every issue except Israel it seems. I just can't figure out what people expect Israel to do. Just take it?
To directly address your logic consider these arguments:
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The idea that Israel is defending itself against unprovoked attacks from outside its borders is an absurdity. Despite Israel’s withdrawal of settlements and bases in 2005, Gaza remains occupied both in reality and international law, its border, coastal waters, resources, airspace and power supply controlled by Israel.
So the Palestinians of Gaza are an occupied people, like those in the West Bank, who have the right to resist, by force if they choose – though not deliberately to target civilians. But Israel does not have a right of self-defence over territories it illegally occupies – it has an obligation to withdraw. That occupation, underpinned by the US and its allies, is now entering its 48th year. Most of the 1.8 million Palestinians enduring continuous bombardment in Gaza are themselves refugees or their descendants, who were driven out or fled from cities such as Jaffa 66 years ago when Israel was established.
It’s been said many times that no government would tolerate rockets being fired into its territory without a response, which is true. But those rockets do not grant Israel a pass from moral responsibility for what it does and the deaths it causes, any more than prior acts of terrorism have. In this as in so many conflicts, both sides—and those who defend each—try to justify their own abdication of human morality with a plea that what the other side has done or is doing is worse. We’ve heard that argument made before, and we’ll continue to hear it. But when we do, we should acknowledge it for what it is: no justification at all.
Actions are either defensible on their own terms or they aren’t. The brutality of your enemy makes no difference in that judgment. It wasn’t acceptable for the Bush administration’s defenders to say (as many did) that torturing prisoners was justified because Al Qaeda beheads prisoners, which is worse. And our judgment of Hamas’s lobbing of hundreds of rockets toward civilian areas tells us nothing about whether Israel’s actions in Gaza are right or wrong.
have a longer memory than a few weeks or months or 10 years, this occupation has been going on for over 60 years, the oppression and racism and fascism of the zionist state has produced this response. what do you expect the native inhabitants of that part of the world to sit there and take it?
They produced this response by being given existence. It's not new.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinordi
Sorry but I have a hard time taking your opinion seriously when you make it so simply black versus white.
I don't intend for it to be. This is an area with a pile of grey, I am not too naive to think this is evil vs. good with each side not sharing some of both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinordi
Hamas had been moderating prior to this latest round of violence. Infact, Hamas and Fatah were coordinating more than they ever had to extend diplomatic channels and open up talks with Israel. There's been alot of discussion around some base level motivations for Israel in this conflict. Such as that they were threatened by this new position. And that should legitimate diplomatic talks start up again, Bibi's coalition of war fanatics wouldn't be able to hold together exposing Israeli weakness.
And that would threaten a group like the one Israel has in power. Like I said before, it comes down to the Israeli people realizing that their leaders are not doing them justice as far as actually seeing an end to the attacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinordi
Fundamentally, though, to answer your question, Israel needs to act like a responsible power and seek a two-state solution for peace. That's the only alternative to violence. Either you're working toward that, or, as was chosen in this case and since Bibi took power, you extend perpetual war. War is peace, slavery is strength.
I agree with you. But even when, in the past, when there have been attempts by Israeli leaders for peace there were attacks.
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Last edited by Blaster86; 07-25-2014 at 03:31 AM.
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It's a war. You might no think it's just, but this is not proof of "sending the UN a message". Based on current evidence, it was probably a tank shell that hit the building. However, it could just as easily have been a Hamas rocket.
You can't bring yourself to mourn the single death of a Palestinian non-combatant, can you?
An Air Canada flight had to circle Ben Gurion Airport after reports of Hamas firing rockets at the airport.
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An Air Canada passenger jet bound for Israel was forced to abort its landing after Hamas fired rockets at the airport on Friday. The Boeing 767 which originated in Toronto was just five miles from Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion airport when it was advised by air traffic control to keep flying "until airspace conditions could be confirmed as safe for landing," Air Canada spokeswoman Isabelle Arthur told NBC News. After altering course, Flight AC84 landed 10 minutes later at 12:07 p.m. local time (5:07 a.m. ET).
Hamas said it fired three rockets at the airport on Friday. Israel's military put the total launches from Gaza Friday morning at 13, prompting warnings in Tel Aviv and Ben Gurion. No damage was reported at the airport but according to Reuters the passenger lounge emptied at the sound of sirens. Hamas has stated its desire to cripple the airport. On Tuesday, an intercepted rocket prompted the Federal Aviation Administration to halt American commercial flights. The FAA's ban was lifted late Wednesday. However, German carrier Lufthansa was among those still not flying into Tel Aviv on Friday.
It's a war. You might no think it's just, but this is not proof of "sending the UN a message". Based on current evidence, it was probably a tank shell that hit the building. However, it could just as easily have been a Hamas rocket.
Ol'fast and loose with the facts blankall...
It's a war? Some war.
But more specifically, the IDF has confirmed that they were the ones that blew up the UN school that killed 15 and injured 200.
The Israeli military first claimed, in a text sent to journalists, that the school could have been hit by Hamas missiles that fell short. Later, a series of tweets from the Israel Defence Forces appeared to confirm the deaths were the result of an Israeli strike.
"Today Hamas continued firing from Beit Hanoun. The IDF responded by targeting the source of the fire."
"Last night, we told Red Cross to evacuate civilians from UNRWA's shelter in Beit Hanoun btw 10am & 2pm. UNRWA & Red Cross got the message. Hamas prevented civilians from evacuating the area during the window that we gave them."
Forgot I'm not allowed to criticize blowing up a UN school because an Israeli might have invented my microprocessor...
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Ignore them? Allow the attacks? I know they over-react, but what other options are there? This is the one thing about Israel's detractors that trips me up. All things considered, I am a left wing liberal on every issue except Israel it seems. I just can't figure out what people expect Israel to do. Just take it?
As you note, no solution that will please everyone. However, one thing Israel can do is stop the punitive treatment of these people. I think we often forget (and don't fully appreciate) that Palestinians live under occupation. Controlling their air and sea space along with imports and exports are all punitive and collective measures that can be stopped. Perhaps not require Israel approved ID cards for people to leave Gaza? Stop settlements and begin to find a way to address the illegal settlements that they've already established.
My opinion is that these actions are the true cause of the Palestinian discontent. Living under occupation doesn't make anyone happy. Relaxing these oppressive measures is a risk Israelis need to be willing to take.
And FF, PH.D, it's not like those are grotesque demands.
They are internationally recognized as illegal and contributing to the violent resistance of palestinian organizations.
This isn't muddy water type stuff. Israel has illegal encroached and constructed settlements on domestically (within israel) recognized occupied land.
The ISRAELI'S refer to it as the occupied territories. This is some pretty standard stuff.
As far as terrorist organizations go, Nelson Mandela was only officially removed from the American terrorist watch list in 2008 and he is now seen as an inspirational figure who defied racist apartheid policies using violent and non-violent resistance.
Most of the planet could see what was going on in South Africa and were justly appalled and horrified at the violence. This situation differs in but the smallest of ways.
White South Africans once claimed that such brutal oppression was necessary because if 'the blacks' had their way, they'd kill all the white people. Well, 20 years later, whites are still disproportionately affluent.
The idea that the international community and the united states would allow a newly formed palestinian state to wipe israel off the map is about as absurd as the idea that a newly formed palestinian state would be able to wipe israel off the map.
It's all theatre for a brutal occupation that would make the Russians blush.
We're talking about real people here that are basically being shot like fish in a barrel. There is nowhere to escape to, there is no safe ground, there is no security and no hope for the future. Calling a house, or more terrifyingly, BOMBING it before you destroy it, isn't an action to be lauded for it's humanitarianism, it's terrorism. It is terrorising a population with threats of unjustified, random, lethal force. It's cruel and unusual collective punishment.
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18 U.S.C. § 2331 defines "international terrorism" and "domestic terrorism" for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled "Terrorism”:
"International terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:
Involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear to be intended
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.
This is what terrorism looks like.
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As far as terrorist organizations go, Nelson Mandela was only officially removed from the American terrorist watch list in 2008 and he is now seen as an inspirational figure who defied racist apartheid policies using violent and non-violent resistance.
Reminds me of this Mandela exchange:
Offered the chance to be free by the avowed white supremacist P.W. Botha if he would renounce violence, Mandela replied, “Let him renounce violence.”
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Bottom line is this series of attacks is well beyond "self defence" and is excessive aggression on Israel's part. I for one am disappointed the Canadian government doesn't have enough sack to stand up for what's right and instead choose to blanketly support these atrocities without the slightest bit of criticism.
I'm all for Israel's right to exist and defend itself from terrorism, but the same conditions need to exist for the palestinian people. Its never a "they are evil, we are good" scenario, and I have a really hard time differentiating terrorism from what Israel is doing right now, as pointed out in the post above.
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It's interesting that Israel's actions over the last couple of weeks have proven that the pro-Palestine side's "outrageous claims" made at the beginning of this thread are no longer outrageous.
