How many brutal giveaways does Butler need to do..

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Breen can't make the lineup so giving him Butler's spot makes the team worse. As Textcritic said there isn't anyone on the Heat ready to make the jump. I think Butler has been good for the team in that he's filled in well for Giordano and Wideman and has become a lightning rod for fans to concern themselves with distracting them from more glaring issues with the franchise. The reality is that if Butler was the Flames biggest problem this franchise would be in very good shape.

Well that, of course, is an undeniable truth, but just because he isn't the biggest problem doesn't mean he isn't still a problem.

Personally what I'd like to see, if the Flames are keen on keeping Butler is to put him, firmly, on the 3rd pairing once Wideman is back. Give him 10-12 minutes a night, give him the easier/easiest assignments and see how he does. Even Butler supporters have to agree he is being played over his head and maybe, just maybe, he can actually develop and somewhat get better if he's allowed to play competition closer to his level of skill/ability. Probably a pipe dream though as Hartley seems to really like the guy and thinks he belongs in the top 4.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The reality is that if Butler was the Flames biggest problem this franchise would be in very good shape.

He personally isn't the problem alone but he is part of the biggest problem with the team and that is a total lack of NHL talent, primarily top 6/top 4 talent.

The fact that Butler has to be used as a regular defenseman, let alone used in the top 4, when he should be in the AHL and there is nobody in the PB or Abbotsford that is a better option shows just how bad the team is in overall pro talent.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Breen can't make the lineup so giving him Butler's spot makes the team worse. As Textcritic said there isn't anyone on the Heat ready to make the jump. I think Butler has been good for the team in that he's filled in well for Giordano and Wideman and has become a lightning rod for fans to concern themselves with distracting them from more glaring issues with the franchise. The reality is that if Butler was the Flames biggest problem this franchise would be in very good shape.

This brings up another point. Breen needs to play or be waived. There is nothing being accomplished by him or the organization by keeping him on the NHL roster.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by moon

He personally isn't the problem alone but he is part of the biggest problem with the team and that is a total lack of NHL talent, primarily top 6/top 4 talent.

The fact that Butler has to be used as a regular defenseman, let alone used in the top 4, when he should be in the AHL and there is nobody in the PB or Abbotsford that is a better option shows just how bad the team is in overall pro talent.

Moon I agree with a lot of your posts but you think on such a narrow bandwidth. Butler isn't a great player but he's an NHL player. He's not the reason this team has played poor team defense since Brent Sutter left. There have been lots of teams of limited talent that have played tight defensive games but it takes a team effort from the coaches to the players. I don't think Butler is holding this team back from playing good team defense nor do I think Wideman, Russell, Giordano, etc are. This team simply isn't well coached in this area of the game. The effort is there but there's just a lack of discipline and structure.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

This brings up another point. Breen needs to play or be waived. There is nothing being accomplished by him or the organization by keeping him on the NHL roster.

He should get more of a look than he has received so far but the guy that's making those decisions doesn't think he's good enough right now. Maybe Hartley's right as he sees him in practice every day. I don't know but when Wideman gets back it's tough to see Breen getting a better chance than now. Seems like once Smid was brought in that there's just not the room for Breen. SOB has been okay and he's probably the guy that has to sit for Breen to get in.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Moon I agree with a lot of your posts but you think on such a narrow bandwidth. Butler isn't a great player but he's an NHL player. He's not the reason this team has played poor team defense since Brent Sutter left. There have been lots of teams of limited talent that have played tight defensive games but it takes a team effort from the coaches to the players. I don't think Butler is holding this team back from playing good team defense nor do I think Wideman, Russell, Giordano, etc are. This team simply isn't well coached in this area of the game. The effort is there but there's just a lack of discipline and structure.

I have commented many times about the poor defensive system/lack of any system these guys play.

I don't think it is solely a lack of talent on the defensive end that contributes to their struggles. But the combination of poor talent and no system is what has us last in the league defensively.

I will have to disagree on him being an NHL player. He is god awful out there and was bad, bad, bad in Buffalo as well.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

He should get more of a look than he has received so far but the guy that's making those decisions doesn't think he's good enough right now. Maybe Hartley's right as he sees him in practice every day. I don't know but when Wideman gets back it's tough to see Breen getting a better chance than now. Seems like once Smid was brought in that there's just not the room for Breen. SOB has been okay and he's probably the guy that has to sit for Breen to get in.

Well for all the talking up he's gotten, he didn't even look like anything close to an NHL'er in the games he played. I agree he needs more of a shot, but after the hype he was getting, that was shocking.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

And everybody calls +\- a flawed stat....until it can be used to trash the Oilers or Chris Butler.

Butler has been on the ice for a whopping 3 more ES goals against than TJ Brodie and 2 less then Dennis Wideman.

You say that like it's a good thing. The only other defencemen who I wouldn't want on the ice would be Wideman. He's just as bad defensively as Butler but he brings something offensively to the table.

Another fun stat is that giveaway machine Chris Butler has two fewer giveaways then TJ Brodie, albieit while playing a much less risky offensive game with less reward.

Another fun stat. Pavel Datsyuk has more giveaways than Backlund, Cammallerri and a bunch of other Flames. And you do realize that the more flashy offensively you are, the more likely you will turn the puck over, right? It's why some of the best players in the NHL are usually the giveaway leaders. Another useless stat from the Butler defenders.

Which leads to the real issue that is he has only been on the ice for 15 ES GF, which really is a laughable number. Really some bad luck to be on the ice for so few goals for. Also even weirder since he has the same amount of ES points as TJ Brodie.

Well that probably has something to do with his terrible first pass, his average skating and how when he is on the ice we are usually defending because one of his bonehead plays.

The issue I have is with the fans that trash him for every little thing, give him no credit, and call him an AHL dman.

It is blind hate and he has been a scapegoat since the trade since fans were never happy with the return and have blamed him.

It has nothing to do with that trade. It has everything to do with how much he sucks on the ice. Buffalo fans warned us the minute he got here and the whole hockey world thought we were fleeced. They were wrong. It was much, much worse. You can't fix low hockey IQ. Butler will be lucky to have an NHL job after his time is up in Calgary. Quote me on that too because I guarantee he won't have a regular job in the NHL once he leaves this team.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

I can't say I'm necessarily "convinced" either, but would sure like to see more of a guy like Chad Billins, who IMO looked quite a bit better then Butler in his pair of NHL games (small sample size, I know) and has really impressed this year in the AHL. I understand wanting to keep some of the younger pro's down the AHL, as that is likely best for their development. But a guy like Billins, who is going to turn 25 years old by the end of the season, who is PPG in 20+ AHL games and who looked decent in his cup of coffee in the NHL earlier in the year, I would argue it is very possible he brings more then Butler does.

I think that that is highly speculative. The Flames coaches and the Heat coaching staff have a much better read on this than us casual observers, and I expect that they likely have a different take. But even if he is a better option than Butler, the decision for the Flames is probably determined by HOW MUCH better an option Billins is. Is he going to make such a dramatic difference that will be noticeable in the standings, or in the long term? Again, I'm fairly certain that he will not.

Furthermore, one also has to wonder if perhaps one of the reasons the coaches seem to like Butler as much as they do probably has something to do with how coachable a player he is. His massive commitment to shot blocking this season would suggest that he is willing to do what the coaches have asked him to do. Are they going to get the same response from another bottom-pairing defenseman in practice, in the dressing room, in game situations that they do from Butler? We can't know the answer to these questions, but by raising them, it illustrates just how much factors into these sorts of decisions.

Originally Posted by kipperfan

At the end of the day, as others have mentioned, I just don't see any real advantage in continuing to play Butler. We're a rebuilding team and Butler has had numerous seasons getting top minutes on our roster and IMO, hasn't improved a lick. Might as well start giving shots to guys like Breen and Billins, as we really aren't sure what they can bring on a nightly basis in the NHL. But we do know they've shown signs of having potential to get better, and I would personally prefer to try and foster that potential rather then continue to suffer through Butler's nightly blunders in hopes that one day, one month, one season he might "get it" and become more then he has been since joining the team.

Did you just ignore everything that I said in my previous post? The reason Butler is on the Flames roster is not for his development, or because anyone believes that he has "untapped" potential. No one is suffering from any such notion that Butler will ever be much more than he is now. No, he remains in the lineup because the coaches ARE (seemingly) CONVINCED that another player in the system who is ready to play in the NHL does not provide a tangibly better option on a nightly basis. That is more a testament to the lack of defensive depth in the organisation than anything, but is precisely to be expected for a rebuilding team.

[Mister Yamoto]

I really don't see this as some sort of great revelation.

The Flames winning percentage over the last few seasons is a clear indicator that a lot of the players are simply not good enough. I'd say that as much as 1/3 of the roster aren't even legit NHLers.

Remember Young Guns part 1? Clark Wilm, Aaron Gavey, Joel Bouchard etc, etc. The current Flames are the same way. Once these players are done with the Flames the NHL part of their career is over because they weren't NHLers to begin with.

A team will lose because its players aren't good enough. Chris Butler is part of that but he is not the only one. Not even close.

[Itse]

I agree that Butler might very well be the best option we have, so I'm not upset at the coaches for doing what they do. For me it has always been more about the fact that watching him play is boring at best and frustrating at worst. There's never anything worth seeing, and no hope of him developing into anything.

[Stay Golden]

Originally Posted by FBI

Before he is held the least bit accountable?

Unbelievable what our management sees in this useless player. Watching other guys get benched for much smaller mistakes while Butler gets a free pass drives me crazy.

^
^

Has a GM gone out of his way more to over exaggerate how great a player is playing more than Fester does constantly for this scrub Butler.
Retro must be saying this is the joke that is wearing my old number 44.
If Fester gets his way Butler will have a new 3 year mutli million $ contract for his pal Butler.
For a regular minute D man, Butler ranks up there with that goof Eriksson kind of bad, and they are both truly dumb hockey players.
Other teams coaches have a library of Butlers generous blunders as a teaching tool for their D what not to do.
Butler since he was brought here to the Flames by Fester is void of all accountability even though he is the biggest culprit compared to every other D man.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

^
^

Has a GM gone out of his way more to over exaggerate how great a player is playing more than Fester does constantly for this scrub Butler.
Retro must be saying this is the joke that is wearing my old number 44.
If Fester gets his way Butler will have a new 3 year mutli million $ contract for his pal Butler.
For a regular minute D man, Butler ranks up there with that goof Eriksson kind of bad, and they are both truly dumb hockey players.
Other teams coaches have a library of Butlers generous blunders as a teaching tool for their D what not to do.
Butler since he was brought here to the Flames by Fester is void of all accountability even though he is the biggest culprit compared to every other D man.

Actually its been the last 2 coaches that have given Butler praise. They obviously see something, that i can no longer see. For a time i thought there was some potential, but the last 2 years he has not progressed. I do see why he is getting playing time right now. If anybody thinks SOB or Smith are as good as him, then they have full blinders on.

[Stay Golden]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Actually its been the last 2 coaches that have given Butler praise. They obviously see something, that i can no longer see. For a time i thought there was some potential, but the last 2 years he has not progressed. I do see why he is getting playing time right now. If anybody thinks SOB or Smith are as good as him, then they have full blinders on.

SOB is a clod as well 2 left feet. Both SOB and Butler are a couple dummies of the league. A goalies worst nightmare as defenders and throwing bad passes to the opposition is a nightly ritual.

[Hockeyboy2]

Chris Butler should be the 7th d-man on a team making a measly Orthopedic Dentists Salary of $600,000 playing once every few games and playing 5-7 minutes on those nights.

Making him or anyone else try to be something they are not is when that person will struggle.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Hockeyboy2

Chris Butler should be the 7th d-man on a team making a measly Orthopedic Dentists Salary of $600,000 playing once every few games and playing 5-7 minutes on those nights.

Making him or anyone else try to be something they are not is when that person will struggle.

Yet the Flames Coaches & Management seem to like him go figure.

Butler had the most ice time of any player on the Flames roster last game.

[Bmuzyka]

Brad Stuart did the same thing in Detroit. Hell, he personally cost the Red Wings the 08-09 Stanley Cup to Pittsburgh in Game 7 with 2 brutal cough ups in his own end. Yet, for some reason Ken Holland insisted on keeping him around until last year.

[Hockeyboy2]

Originally Posted by flambers

Yet the Flames Coaches & Management seem to like him go figure.

Butler had the most ice time of any player on the Flames roster last game.

That is interesting to say the least. Why do you suspect there is such a discrepancy between what we as fans see and what the coaching staff sees as far as his on ice play goes? What do they see that so many fans dont.

[Arkamedius]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The hate is laughable.

Any other dman and people wouldn't even bat an eye. Plays like that happen countless times every game, Hemsky made a good play on his backhand to keep the puck in.

Butler needed to make a stronger play but other dmen made just as "brutal" plays to clear even earlier in the same sequence.

Butler is what he is, a 5/6 d-man that can be serviceable but in over his head in top 4 minutes.

Something about this fanbase and the constant need for a whipping boy though.

Yea..
He may not be the worst player this team has had playing that position but he has cost us either a goal and or a game on more than one occasion, couple that with his weak offensive plays make him ... Useless really. He may put up large number for play time and you could try and defend him by saying that when you factor that in you can explain some of the mistakes. Ultimately when you suck as bad as "butlerfingers" (lol I'm loving that name) and you haven't improved over the past couple of seasons you need to be put out to pasture.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Hockeyboy2

That is interesting to say the least. Why do you suspect there is such a discrepancy between what we as fans see and what the coaching staff sees as far as his on ice play goes? What do they see that so many fans dont.

In my view Its the Regher trade, fans expected a top 2 dman to replace Regher.

Expectations were too high.

However he is much better than many folks are saying. Obviosuly the Coaches like him.