Would you support Rainbow on Hockey Unis for Sochi?

[OffsideSpecialist]

Originally Posted by Pointman

You missed "under 18" part. If you are gay, you can not communicate that being gay is good to CHILDREN.

My concern here would be about gay youth in Russia feeling helpless, living with depression and perhaps even resorting suicide if they are not able to get support from other gay people.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Pointman

No. Because mixed-race couples can born children.

So, what's that got to do with anything?

Your definition of "non-traditional sexual relationships" is anyone that can't have children? I say this is purely your view and has nothing to do with the law in question, but if you have a reference to a definition of "non-traditional sexual relationships" for this law I'm sure we'd all be glad to hear it.

And even if it was, a gay couple CAN have children using techniques that other heterosexual couples that can't have children use, so this definition becomes useless.

So unless ALL couples that choose not to or cannot have kids are also a target of this law, you haven't yet shown how a black/white couple is any different than a gay couple.

Originally Posted by Pointman

There's no anti-gay bigotry in Russia. There's no mob demolishing those gay clubs in Moscow.

I don't know how you can say that at all. There's anti-gay bigotry everywhere, Russia cannot be an exception. Not to mention actual news stories that mention anti-gay activists.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/photo...e-needs-to-see

Originally Posted by Pointman

You missed "under 18" part. If you are gay, you can not communicate that being gay is good to CHILDREN.

Exactly, don't want children getting the idea of equality for everyone, indoctrination of bigotry needs isolation from other ideas. Make sure children think that society views gay as abnormal.

Originally Posted by Pointman

I still can't get why you all keep bringing human rights and equality.

Children are humans and deserve equality too. Sexuality doesn't kick in at 18 after being absent until the second before turning 18.

Originally Posted by Pointman

Gays have equal rights in Russia.

Except they're not allowed to do anything that can be seen as saying being gay is ok anywhere a child might see.

Originally Posted by Pointman

To say that their rights are oppressed because they can not communicate it to children is like saying that drinkers rights are oppressed because they can not teach U18 kids how to drink (I heard, you have "underage drinking" law in Canada)?

There's so much wrong with this it's hard to say anything, but we can begin with it being a flawed analogy because drinking a) can be harmful and b) is something a person chooses. Again interracial marriage is a better analogy because it isn't harmful and race isn't something one chooses. Not to mention that promoting drinking to underage people isn't illegal, commercials show drinking as great on TV all the time, and any kid around adults having fun drinking could get that impression as well. And our society hasn't collapsed, and drinking (unlike homosexuality) can actually be harmful!

Originally Posted by Pointman

Don't worry, kids parents will tell him that it's ok. They don't need a stranger on the street or a star on TV to show fledgling minds an awesomeness of being gay.

Yeah, that's worked out so well for the tons of kids who commit suicide because they are gay in countries without this kind of law. The law will make it worse, not better.

Overall you have not supported why this law is needed at all. Still wanting elaboration on the harm that this law supposedly prevents.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by theTrumanShow

So having differing opinion is being a biggot? Are we in Russia?? No opinions aloud apparently.

Block me, its your right, just like mine, communist.

If that opinion is bigoted, then yes.

I do give you points for the "communist" comment, bravo.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Again, basically WHOLE NATION supports it and there's a reason for it. A reason that seems pretty hard to understand if you live on the other side of the globe in the entirely different culture.

So explain it!

What harm does this law address? Be specific.

A whole nation used to support slavery, and there was a reason for it (many reasons!). Doesn't make it right or the reason right.

[Pointman]

Sorry, guys, I have to go sleep. Photon's latest posts are good and deserve a response, but I'm too sleepy to do it. I'm glad that I at least shed some light about what the law is about and created a bit more intellegent and unbiased discussion about it. To end it for now, I will leave you with an interview of Sergey Guriev — a man, who fled Russia escaping the possible arrest by Putin for political reasons. Guriev has all the reasons in the world to hate Russia, current government and all — and the interview had plenty of well-supported points about issues in Russia. Yet this is what he says in this interview (I tried to find the same in his english-language interviews, but there were none, so you need to google-translate this link (quoted by google translater, so no grammer):

If you open a newspaper here in France, or America, or in England, there will be written about Russia scary horror. There's Russia looks much worse than it actually is.

Reputation at us, of course, much worse than we are.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

people like you are no better. I mean really people like you need to stop assuming that people who don't condemn a law are therefor supporting it.

Read the thread, he is supporting it.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by photon

So explain it!

What harm does this law address? Be specific.

A whole nation used to support slavery, and there was a reason for it (many reasons!). Doesn't make it right or the reason right.

The law was introduced, according to the government, to protect gay people, because being gay "incites hate". Here is the law if anyone is interested:

Propaganda is the act of distributing information among minors that 1) is aimed at the creating nontraditional sexual attitudes, 2) makes nontraditional sexual relations attractive, 3) equates the social value of traditional and nontraditional sexual relations, or 4) creates an interest in nontraditional sexual relations.

So basically, as a homosexual, you cannot:
Talk about your lifestyle
Publicly display your lifestyle
Claim that your lifestyle is in any way equal to that of heterosexuality
Suggest or overtly claim that being gay is "ok"
Promote homosexuality in any way

The further issue, is that this law goes against Russia's criminal code which prevents the criminalisation of propaganda involving legal activities, this is according the former Deputy Prime Minister Zhukov. He also states that the law contracts article 29 of the Russian constitution, and article 8, 10, and 13 of the European Convention on human rights. Added to this, is the act that the government has not defined "propaganda" or "nontraditional sexual relations" in this context, allowing them to essentially use the law as they see fit.

That is a clear, concise, factual, and elaborate explanation of the law, a law which was turned down in 2004 and 2006 by Zhukov, a law that hasn't changed since it was turned down 6 years ago, but is suddenly acceptable now despite it's many legal and technical problems.
Even if you don't like gay people, you HAVE to see how ridiculous it is to make a law that purposely circumvents other laws while flying in the face of your own countries constitution.

[jayswin]

Be aware mods, I'm not saying this to take a shot at the site or moderation, as there's nothing in here that can be "moderated". But in 7 years of posting on this site, this thread is honestly the low point for me personally.

A lot of it isn't just the thread itself, but the fact that other threads on human equality have gone so well, with so many forward thinking, inclusive opinions, and then this one just kind of came out of nowhere and made it seem as though we were posting in like 1995.

There's been bad threads, but they've been threads that were more purposely trollish in nature. This thread has been honest feelings from everyone, and that makes me feel a little queezy, honestly. Especially these last few pages.

As I read posts from Alberta Beef, Pointman and a few others, I felt sick and angry reading them and had long winded, angry responses lined up, but then thought "naw, they believe what they believe, and nothing we can say will make them realize what they're saying, who it affects and how downright backwards they are".

I'm not trying to make this personal, Pointman, but this is what your posts have done for me; They've made me realize that Russia really is a backwards, ****ty country that's becoming more backwards by the day.

It's also made me realize that I support protests/boycotts now more than ever, against this crappy nation that is in no hurry to pull it's stupid head out of it's stupid ass.

I haven't felt disgusted reading a thread on CP in a long time, but this thread and specifically the discussion that went on today have left me feeling a little ill.

All we can do is continue to support our great country in it's achievements in equality for the LGBT community and make our voices heard about these parts of the world that are archaic, backwards and just plain disgusting towards the gay community, and beyond that just wait for these dinosaurs to die out, and just be happy we live in Canada.

[jayswin]

Wow, I think that might be the gayest post by a straight guy in CP's history.

[valo403]

I hear you flameswin, but the way I'm looking at it is that even though this thread has exposed some pretty terrible viewpoints, it's also shown that this community doesn't support those viewpoints, and will counter them from every angle.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by valo403

I hear you flameswin, but the way I'm looking at it is that even though this thread has exposed some pretty terrible viewpoints, it's also shown that this community doesn't support those viewpoints, and will counter them from every angle.

I am actually interested in reading the response to Pointman on why Russians feel:

Again, basically WHOLE NATION supports it and there's a reason for it. A reason that seems pretty hard to understand if you live on the other side of the globe in the entirely different culture.

This might explain the thinking behind the law, which might help Alberta Beef make a decision as well.

[DazzlinDino]

Having worked in the field, I see a lot of these same attitudes directed towards people with disabilities; For example people who are deaf 50, 60 years ago used to be called "deaf and dumb". It was supposed to mean can't hear can't talk.. Sometimes you can still catch the older generation making this type of negative comment. A lot has gone into educating people about proper terms and showing consideration and respect for people regardless of differences. We have come a long way as a society but it takes time to educate. People can and do change their attitudes based on being educated. Personally i wasn't accepting of gay people growing up but I have met many wonderful gay people who being genuine, caring compassionate people have made me see things differently. The patch at the Olympics "if allowed" is just another small step towards people becoming educated about respect and valuing each person regardless of what makes people different. Personally at some point it would be nice to see gay people actively in support of other important causes such as disabilities, minorities since they have the personal background and understanding on overcoming adverse attitudes.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by valo403

I hear you flameswin, but the way I'm looking at it is that even though this thread has exposed some pretty terrible viewpoints, it's also shown that this community doesn't support those viewpoints, and will counter them from every angle.

I don't know. There seems to be quite a few voices in this "community" that have come forth with some pretty vile views. And for each one that has stood up and voiced their disturbing opinions, how many are not saying anything, but still hold those views? Even within Canada, we are not united on this issue, much less ready to ask the world to change their views.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by flameswin

But again, the point is what? You don't like this backlash? You want it to be less?

Sure it may be less in your scenario, but who cares? Let's keep this going.

Who said I had a problem with the backlash?

Maybe, just maybe, I was making a comment about how there is a shockingly low amount of support about women's rights and the World cup going to Qatar and that is disappointing. In comparison to this it sure is. It may be a long way away but it was pretty quiet when it was awarded. There was more of a fuss about the weather there than women's rights.

sorry you missed my point

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by strombad

What kind of person is it that feels the need to play the "Well other bad stuff is happening" card and thinks they're clever for it?

"Hey guys! Genocide happened in Rwanda in 1994. Didnt get up in arms about it? Well, now you can't complain about this! What? You were only 10 in 1994? DOESNT MATTER. Aren't I clever!"

Yeah, we all get it, terrible things happen everywhere. But this is current, and it is outrageous. You know the big difference between women in Qatar and homosexuals in Russia? Only one of them gets put in jail just for being themselves.

You are correct what kind of person would say that?

I never did nor was I in anyway going down the road you were going.

Feel free to argue with yourself.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

Who said I had a problem with the backlash?

Maybe, just maybe, I was making a comment about how there is a shockingly low amount of support about women's rights and the World cup going to Qatar and that is disappointing. In comparison to this it sure is. It may be a long way away but it was pretty quiet when it was awarded. There was more of a fuss about the weather there than women's rights.

sorry you missed my point

Originally Posted by SeeBass

You are correct what kind of person would say that?

I never did nor was I in anyway going down the road you were going.

Feel free to argue with yourself.

You almost contradict yourself back to back. Let me give you a tip: If you say something about nobody caring about women's rights in Qatar, concerning soccer, in a thread about gay rights in Russia, concerning the Olympics, and you expect that people WON'T make the clear connection that you're comparing the two with a negative connotation towards all the support point B is getting, then guy, that is on YOU.

Sorry he missed your point? More like sorry you failed in making it. Own your mistake. If you want to explain yourself go ahead, but don't roll in with "sorry you missed my point" and "feel free to argue with yourself". Grow up.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I don't know. There seems to be quite a few voices in this "community" that have come forth with some pretty vile views. And for each one that has stood up and voiced their disturbing opinions, how many are not saying anything, but still hold those views? Even within Canada, we are not united on this issue, much less ready to ask the world to change their views.

We can't assume anything about those who aren't weighing in. Perhaps they simply have nothing to add to the discussion

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

We can't assume anything about those who aren't weighing in. Perhaps they simply have nothing to add to the discussion

I wouldn't want to guess what percentage of silent people are anti-gay, but I think its a safe assumption that with the reactions it stirs up the majority of anti-gay people will just stay silent to avoid being treated like they are worse than nothing.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I wouldn't want to guess what percentage of silent people are anti-gay, but I think its a safe assumption that with the reactions it stirs up the majority of anti-gay people will just stay silent to avoid being treated like they are worse than nothing.

That's a shame.

[Laner99]

I thought this thread was about rainbows on our Olympic jerseys?

And to that I say no. I don't agree with what is happening in Russia but I also don't want to see a rainbow on our jerseys.