Black teen shot and killed by neighborhood watch in Orlando gated community

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by driveway

However, being regarded as suspicious or dangerous is a commonplace event in the lives of black men in America, and here is an incident in which this very common public perception - of black men as dangerous - appears to have led to the death of a teenager.

The ultimate details of this specific case are largely irrelevant in the broader context: black men in America are unreasonably viewed as dangerous, and are largely unfairly treated by the justice system.

1. It seems to be your impression considering you stated you don't know what other people are thinking.

2. That's a pretty big statement - you have proof of that? Or you just throwing it out there.

[Nage Waza]

I think this scenario would have worked out the same way had Zimmerman been black. A black person reporting a suspicious person to 911. This probably would not have created any type of media sensation.

Regardless of media, the skeptic in me sees no evidence of race in this case.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

1. It seems to be your impression considering you stated you don't know what other people are thinking.

2. That's a pretty big statement - you have proof of that? Or you just throwing it out there.

http://urbanpoverty.qwriting.qc.cuny...ice-System.pdf

http://www.publiceye.org/defendingju...s%20Racist.pdf

I thought it was common knowledge.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Regardless of media, the skeptic in me sees no evidence of race in this case.

That's not true. It has been well documented that Martin called Zimmerman a "creepy cracka".

[driveway]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

1. It seems to be your impression considering you stated you don't know what other people are thinking.

2. That's a pretty big statement - you have proof of that? Or you just throwing it out there.

Now you're just being deliberately obtuse. Go away, we're trying to have an adult discussion.

[DuffMan]

Just some info on the Sanford police dept. the one that handled the initial Martin murder case.

Press reports have indicated a number of cases of misconduct by officers of the Sanford Police Department.

In 2010, a Florida Department of Law Enforcement report noted that Sanford police Officer Christopher McClendon had misused his official position by helping a car dealer recover cars from delinquent customers in exchange for having his own car payments forgiven.[22]

In February 2010, press reports indicated one officer was fired, and another, Ned Golden, Jr., was suspended for two weeks[23] after sending sexist and racist text messages on a department computer.[24]

In January, 2011, the same Officer Golden was assigned to retraining after approaching a car of people at a gas station with a drawn gun. Officer Golden grabbed the car when it pulled away. He then claimed the driver of the car tried to kill him by driving away while he held on to the car.[25] No charges were filed in the case. In August 2011, after an investigation by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Golden was fired. The state report recommended he be charged with filing a false police report, official misconduct and assault with a deadly weapon.[26] No charges were filed by the State Attorney's Office.[27]

Officer Golden is the son of the head of the local police union.[24]
In that same month, the chief of the department, Brian Tooley, took an early retirement as a result of an incident involving one of his officer’s sons. Justin Collison was involved in a fistfight caught on video tape. Press reports indicate Collison, the son of a police lieutenant, may have received preferential treatment by the Sanford Police Department.[28]

In April 2011, Officer DeAnthony Shamar was fired when it was discovered he had used a boy scout as a proxy buyer in a drug investigation. In his nine years as a Sanford police officer, Shamar had been investigated by the department 25 times.[29]

In December 2012, Officer Stephan Santiago was charged with leaving the scene of an accident after a chase that culminated with him driving his car the wrong way on the street, bumping off the curbs several times. Santiago passed a field sobriety test and the police department promised an internal investigation. The same officer had been involved in a barroom brawl in 2008.[30]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanford...tment_(Florida)

A bit more on the Justin Collison

Justin Collison, the son of a Sanford police officer, was caught on camera sucker-punching homeless man Sherman Ware on December 4th in 2010. The officers on the scene did not arrest him that night. (An internal investigation cleared all of the officers of any wrongdoing, according to the Orlando Sentinel)

watch the video and tell me you think the police officers son should not have been arrested immediately and charged with assault. But he was not even with the video out. why do you think that was? because the victim was homeless?


Ah Florida Justice, you so wacky.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

A bit more on the Justin Collison

watch the video and tell me you think the police officers son should not have been arrested immediately and charged with assault. But he was not even with the video out. why do you think that was? because the victim was homeless?

You are aware of who led the charge to try and get justice for the homeless man in that video though, right?

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

You are aware of who led the charge to try and get justice for the homeless man in that video though, right?

Who? And was it before or after the video hit youtube?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

There have been over 1000 posts where much of the lies have been repeated and discredited. I don't think even one time have you even acknowledged any counter argument.

I don't need to repeat the facts over and over, you can (but I doubt you will) go back to see which posts are relevant.

I think you misunderstand what it means for YOU to actually form and support an argument.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

You are aware of who led the charge to try and get justice for the homeless man in that video though, right?

Don't know, public pressure on officials? same as Florida vs. Zimmerman?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Who? And was it before or after the video hit youtube?

Zimmerman!

He was vocal against the misconduct of the police officers involved in the investigation . He, supposedly, passed out flyers in public places, like churches, as well hoping to have the officers held accountable for protecting the son of a fellow officer.

I would suspect that it was after the news video, as that's likely how he found out about it, but he was trying to expose the police force for corruption and not just have Justin Collison face the law.

I suppose he probably did that in January 2011 so he could kill a black kid in 2012 though.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

That's my position. It's also my position that the President is making a bold statement against one of the three 'sacred' levels of our government- the judicial system. Not smart for POTUS in my opinion.

Should have used multi-quote. Sorry.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

I find it interesting that Obama would make a comment on how Martin could have been him years ago. Why make a comment on this case? Why not make a comment on the 60 murders so far in Kansas City Missouri? Why not make a comment on the crime in the black community, and how Kansas City for the second year in a row has the worst black on black crime rate in the nation? Or isn't that politically correct? Why was Zimmerman's gun and situation different other than he got caught/turned himself in? POTUS should busy himself with the nation's problems, and avoid knocking on the hornet's nest with the race card. Things are already bad enough. He's playing with fire with his comments.

nm

[valo403]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

Do you live in the US?

nm

[valo403]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

You seem like a very smart person, and you are probably have the ability to interpret comments made by POTUS rationally. I am too, and I know what you are trying to say- you believe I am misinterpreting Obama's comments to be racist comments against white people, and that I perceive that he is stating that our justice system wasn't effective.

Just FYI, I have read Obama's comments several times. Whatever his final comments are, he starts out with talking about how people get nervous around black men/lock doors/hold purses tighter/this situation may not have happened to a white kid. Then he goes on to say that law enforcement has to work to end this racial profiling, etc, but things are 'getting better.'

Let me tell you what Americans heard. And hey, I am just being honest, and I am judging this by the people I associate and work with every day. I can give you countless examples.

They heard this: 'President Obama thinks Zimmerman should have been guilty and therefore he loves black people and hates white people.'

You and I might be able to rationally conclude that Obama didn't mean to express this opinion, but in fact- that's what the PERCEPTION was. And, quite frankly, I've lived here for over 15 years and when I was here for the first 3, 4 years I probably would have been making your same arguments. However, I KNOW that it's not WHAT political figures say, it's how what they say is perceived. It's my opinion, that Obama has directly stirred the pot- and that opinion is based on exactly what I hear from the people I associate with daily. He knows what he's doing, and he counts on people like you, (rational people), to defend his statements and interpret them literally. However, politicians rely on the fact that they are more articulate and much more intelligent than the 'general public.' He knew damn well how his comments would be perceived. I mean, Jesus Christ, he knew about the violent riots in LA and other protests and incidents all across the States. His comments added fuel to the fire, regardless how they were 'meant.'

I don't have any suggestions on how to solve the racial tensions in the US, but I do know that they aren't going to get better by the President of the United States talking about Trayvon Martin being a victim- when the person who was found innocent of all charges against him was deemed not guilty by a jury.

Sad but true. I am not trying to be at all disrespectful nor sarcastic, I am simply telling it like it is here in the US.

nm

[valo403]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

Ok, I am going to spell this out- so that I hope it makes sense. Again, not trying to be sarcastic at all, no smart-ass tones involved.

If Obama made a random comment or addressed the press about racism, he would be in his bounds to do it. I mean, he's the first black POTUS, of course the topic is going to come up. The fact that he was voted in is a huge step for the US towards racial equality and I think he has every reason to address race issues.

HOWEVER- HUGE difference making comments about ONE case in which the media is using to create racial tension. It's completely irresponsible- regardless of what colour Obama is. He is President over 315 MILLION people, and there are over 16, 000 homicides in the US per year, and over 11, 000 of those homicides are caused by firearms. As POTUS- singling out a controversial case and talking about racial tensions is IRRESPONSIBLE because he is the leader of this country, the free world- the one who can decide whether or not we can drop a nuclear bomb or go to war- he's the Commander in Chief of the United States Armed Forces and he's arguably the most powerful man in the world. Directing his attention to a specific case for the sole purpose to talk about racial issues that really have NOTHING to do with the case in the first place is just moronic and unnecessary on his part. Clinton was a dumbass with women but he was very diplomatic. Obama needs to focus more on being diplomatic and addressing this country's needs as a whole. If he wants to give a speech on the importance of improving race relations, he has every right. He should not however, announce his opinion on a specific high profile case which he knows (regardless of whatever intentions you think he may have had)- he KNOWS will cause more problems.

I sincerely hope that you can understand this view point and see that it does have some merit.

I'm sorry but this is post upon post of absolute ridiculousness on this topic. This case has inflamed racial tensions, there is a heavy race element in the response to it and it is the perfect opportunity to make a statement about race in America, a topic that Obama has not been very active on in any form. As the leader of this country it is his job to speak on topics that shape this country, and race relations is right at the top of that list, pretending otherwise is pure ignorance. He did no opine on the verdict, he used the case as a catalyst for discussing the greater issue of race, I'm not sure how you have come to this contrary conclusion.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I am really torn on this. Zimmerman thought someone was suspicious (based on Martin looking at a house that Zimmerman knew was someone else's and Martin quickly looking around) and called the police. I think that was reasonable. I am pretty confident police are called routinely for innocuous behaviour. Zimmerman's perspective was based on knowledge of criminal activity in the area.
Anyway, it appears that Martin circled back and confronted Zimmerman and as a result of something, Zimmerman was forced to shoot Martin.
I don't see that there was a race issue here at all, both people could have been any color for this to occur.

From what Nage? Again, this is where you make AND support an argument. Not just make a conclusory statement and leave it at that.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

1. It seems to be your impression considering you stated you don't know what other people are thinking.

2. That's a pretty big statement - you have proof of that? Or you just throwing it out there.

1. Seriously? You're questioning whether there is a tendency among people in the US to be prejudiced towards black men?

2. Again, this is common knowledge. There are countless studies that show the historically unequal treatment of black men by the US justice system.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by valo403

1. Seriously? You're questioning whether there is a tendency among people in the US to be prejudiced towards black men?

2. Again, this is common knowledge. There are countless studies that show the historically unequal treatment of black men by the US justice system.

1. No but there is more to it than skin colour - I have been in many US cities and most non blacks don't rip it across the street when they see the black man coming.

2. There might some isolated incidents but it's real hard one to study - every criminal investigation is different - I struggle see how you can simplify it for public consumption. It might just be a case of proverty than skin color - OJ Simpson probably killed two people - was found incident thanks to money, a inept prosecution and a jury who didn't quite understand DNA

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

1. No but there is more to it than skin colour - I have been in many US cities and most non blacks don't rip it across the street when they see the black man coming.

2. There might some isolated incidents but it's real hard one to study - every criminal investigation is different - I struggle see how you can simplify it for public consumption. It might just be a case of proverty than skin color - OJ Simpson probably killed two people - was found incident thanks to money, a inept prosecution and a jury who didn't quite understand DNA

Okay, well then let's dig into the history of race and poverty in the US. Are you going to argue that the black population has been treated equal in that respect?

Btw, you not personally seeing people "rip it across the street when they see the black man coming" doesn't mean much, and it certainly doesn't mean that prejudice doesn't exist.