#occupy<insertlocalehere>

[THE SCUD]

Originally Posted by First Lady

You might like this. http://www.corymorgan.com/?p=546

That guy seems to be one step away from needing a tinfoil hat...

[CaptainCrunch]

I think its worthwhile to re-attach Lucia Cobella's columns.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Co...556/story.html

http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...843/story.html

The problem is that the occupy protesters in Calgary aren't really coming up with anything new, they're just regurgitating things that they've read in pamphlets and the web without a real understanding of the situation, or the facts behind it.

They're protesting faillings in the U.S. system without realizing that the Canadian System just doesn't work that way.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by THE SCUD

That guy seems to be one step away from needing a tinfoil hat...

Where do you see that.

Are you saying that he's wrong about things like bylaw enforcment

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I asked why people disparage those using civil disobedience now when it has been used for important causes in the past.

I see an eentsy-weentsy, tiny, small, bit of a speck of a difference between fighting for equal civil rights and begging for free condoms so that people can get it on in Olympic Plaza with 30 or 40 of their new best friends watching. But your mileage may vary.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by THE SCUD

That guy seems to be one step away from needing a tinfoil hat...

Geez, that's such a great argument. Not sure how to debate that.....

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

So if all these asshats made it significantly difficult in some way for you to run your businesses or for customers to direct their patronage to your businesses, you'd be fine with that? You'd have no problem with just saying "Big deal, there are much larger issues at play here"?

The 'asshats' here in London have had far less of a negative impact on my life than the unaccountable bankers that have royally ####ed businesses, individuals and taxpayers over huge swathes of the globe.

Just sayin.

[CaptainCrunch]

If the occupy Calgary protestors wanted to have a real impact they'd go to New York and join hands in solidarity with the occupy new york crowds. That would have an impact and I could respect that.

But after watching interviews with a lot of the protestors here and in Toronto I came away with a sense that they are taking America's problems with their unregulated banking industry and unemployement and the mortgage stuff and trying unscuccessfully to apply them to Canada.

All it is right now is shouting populist jingo's without understanding the substance behind it.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

The 'asshats' here in London have had far less of a negative impact on my life than the unaccountable bankers that have royally ####ed businesses, individuals and taxpayers over huge swathes of the globe.

Just sayin.

The asshats in Calgary haven't had any affect on mine either.

But they're also not in anyone's way a la Occupy Wall Street. The question was hypothetical based on the assumption that protesters were - in fact - actively impeding your ability to get into work every day.

If they aren't, and your answer isn't answering in that context, then I have no idea what the point of you replying was.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I see an eentsy-weentsy, tiny, small, bit of a speck of a difference between fighting for equal civil rights and begging for free condoms so that people can get it on in Olympic Plaza with 30 or 40 of their new best friends watching. But your mileage may vary.

Heh. I was going to write in my initial post:
*awaits the equating the two protests, despite stating twice that I was not equating them*
But I'm glad I was not disappointed. It gives me the feeling that I know what to expect on CP.

And this whole asking for condom things has worn very thin. How many people around the world have participated in the "occupy" protests? What percentage of them asked for free condoms?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The reason I asked about the civil disobedience thing is because someone stated that breaking the law took away from the movement. As if breaking the law automatically = evil. However, in my university days I blocked logging roads into virgin forest and participated in an illegal sit-in vs Indonesian official when Indonesia had invaded East Timor. I don't think what I did was evil. So when I see someone take the position that breaking the law somehow automatically sets a movement in a bad light, I challenge it.

If you want to say that smoking marijuana constantly, asking for condoms, etc sets the movement in a bad light, well, yeah.... but I don't think civil disobedience is always wrong.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

The asshats in Calgary haven't had any affect on mine either.

But they're also not in anyone's way a la Occupy Wall Street. The question was hypothetical based on the assumption that protesters were - in fact - actively impeding your ability to get into work every day.

If they aren't, and your answer isn't answering in that context, then I have no idea what the point of you replying was.

There are two threads here - one for Calgary and this one - can be confusing at times. My point is based on what I'm experiencing in my locale. Some are no doubt 'asshats' others are protesting a system that is insanely complex, rigged and denies anyone a real voice. The people who have benefited from a rigged system, many of whom who have profited in their own failures, have had a far bigger impact on my life than the assiest of assclowns protesting here or elsewhere.

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't disagree that civil disobedience is a bad or ineffective way to go, but it has to be viewd as civil disobedience with a purpose in mind and you more then anyone should know that there has to be a price that your willing to pay, and a clear goal that creates a requirement for the action.

With the Martin Luthor King actions there was a clear message and a clear goal so it became effective, the same with drinking from the whites only fountain, sitting at the whites only counter or sitting in the whites only seats on public transportation. there was a clear message, and there was a clear point, and the people that did it had a clear understanding of the issues and the costs involved.

I'm sure that it was the same in what you were doing in your laudible protests DA.

The occupy Calgary protest is not the same thing, there's not a clear mandate or goal that is pulling it in the same direction. There's not an understanding of the issue and a plan to call attention to it.

I go back to Corbella's columns when she was there and present and talking to these people. When does civil disobedience become meaningless, and in this case when the people are shouting jingo's that they don't understand, and they can't relate their opposition to the current situation.

Marching in support of Occupy Wallstreet, I can see that if you know and understand and believe in what your marching in support of is fine.

But sitting in a campground, and calling it a democracy shool when you don't even understand or take advantage of your countries democratic mechanisms just makes you look foolish.

Man I'm talking about democracy here doesn't mean anything if you didn't vote or don't vote.

Man they need to lower the interest rates from 12% for the average working joes makes no sense when the prime rate is 3% and you don't know that.

Dude, the bankers are screwing us over with their greed, doesn't make for a good argument if you don't know how Canada's banking regulations work.

Dude, I think we need to work less and make more doesn't make sense if you don't understand why we work like we do and how the system that your in sets the pay rates and then ripples across every aspect of the market.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Heh. I was going to write in my initial post:
*awaits the equating the two protests, despite stating twice that I was not equating them*
But I'm glad I was not disappointed. It gives me the feeling that I know what to expect on CP.

And this whole asking for condom things has worn very thin. How many people around the world have participated in the "occupy" protests? What percentage of them asked for free condoms?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The reason I asked about the civil disobedience thing is because someone stated that breaking the law took away from the movement. As if breaking the law automatically = evil. However, in my university days I blocked logging roads into virgin forest and participated in an illegal sit-in vs Indonesian official when Indonesia had invaded East Timor. I don't think what I did was evil. So when I see someone take the position that breaking the law somehow automatically sets a movement in a bad light, I challenge it.

If you want to say that smoking marijuana constantly, asking for condoms, etc sets the movement in a bad light, well, yeah.... but I don't think civil disobedience is always wrong.

Bolded parts indicate a very clear purpose and intent versus Occupy Olympic Plaza.

Having said that, you are also evil.

[afc wimbledon]

The bankers havn't screwed us over, we have screwed us over, we wanted visa cards and no money down mortgages in order to go on holiday.

Blaming the bankers because they fed of our stupidity is like junkies blaming dealers

And these dumb crusties camping out all over the world don't want to 'end capitalism' they just want all the benefits of capitalism, a house and a car, a university education, healthcare etc without any of the consequenses.

[Barnet Flame]

It isn't that simple. Yes people were irresponsible, but certainly here in the UK (most definitely Ireland) it was impossible to behave rationally (save for a sizeable deposit) and get on the housing ladder.

The housing market was fuelled by the banks who were actively encouraging people to overextend themselves because it didn't matter because that 100 or 125% mortgage would be ok as the value of their house would go up and up.

The longer you saved for a deposit, the further away you got from getting even the most entry level of housing.

I bought in 98, and thought I'd paid stupid money at the top of the market. It turned out that the total cost of the house (maisonette) then would only be a modest deposit at the real top of the market in 07.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

It isn't that simple. Yes people were irresponsible, but certainly here in the UK (most definitely Ireland) it was impossible to behave rationally (save for a sizeable deposit) and get on the housing ladder.

The housing market was fuelled by the banks who were actively encouraging people to overextend themselves because it didn't matter because that 100 or 125% mortgage would be ok as the value of their house would go up and up.

The longer you saved for a deposit, the further away you got from getting even the most entry level of housing.

I bought in 98, and thought I'd paid stupid money at the top of the market. It turned out that the total cost of the house (maisonette) then would only be a modest deposit at the real top of the market in 07.

The housing market was stupid because we were stupid and greedy, the banks didn't create it, we did, we thought it would always go up and so it didn't matter what it cost. House prices arn't magically set by the banks, they are set by us.

The idiots are still doing it in Vancouver even though it is utterly unsustainable and I have no doubt we are in for a 30% drop soon enough.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The housing market was stupid because we were stupid and greedy, the banks didn't create it, we did, we thought it would always go up and so it didn't matter what it cost.

The idiots are still doing it in Vancouver even though it is utterly unsustainable and I have no doubt we are in for a 30% drop soon enough.

You don't operate in the housing market in isolation. As an individual you have no control over the market. If you want in it, you had to behave irrationally. Rational behavior became irrational because the longer you tried to behave rationally, the further away from the first rung of the ladder you became. The banks were responsible for fuelling this. Unlike an individual, the banks could impact vituously on the housing market through responsible lending policies that flew out the window.

I'm not saying a lot of people aren't stupid in how they behaved, but many had no choice. What do you do when and entry level apartment costs £275k?

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

What do you do when and entry level apartment costs £275k?

You Rent!

Always remember that as long as your income keeps pace with the rest of the people in the land, house prices cannot sustainably price you into homelessness.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

You Rent!

What do you do when there isn't sufficient rental accommodation and/or the rents demanded are higher than the insane mortgage repayment costs?

In London, people were often gazumped* when purchasing properties and this practice has now appeared in the rental sector. A place to live is not a luxury and consequently people will behave in an irrational manner when all around them is irrationality.

*Gazumping" is the refusal to formalise a property sale agreement at the last minute, usually in order to accept a higher offer..

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

What do you do when there isn't sufficient rental accommodation and/or the rents demanded are higher than the insane mortgage repayment costs?

You still rent because a pricing correction is inevitable if incomes do not correlate to prices or vice-versa. Over-buying and taking out a 30 year mortgage turns a liquidity problem into a 30-year solvency problem

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

What do you do when there isn't sufficient rental accommodation and/or the rents demanded are higher than the insane mortgage repayment costs?

Thats why I am in Vancouver and not London, and why I lived in Poco and not downtown for years and why I bought a beaten up piece of crap house when I did move into Vancouver and lived in it for years doing repairs myself or when I had the money, not borrowing.