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I think both sides are pretty much trigger happy don't you?
Since the people on the boat didn't have guns, and we don't have any real evidence that they were part of Hamas, I'd say at this point, no.
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Oh I agree, I want both sides, but how is it over aggressive if the IDF boarding party was attacked when they boarded the boat? At that point it becomes a defense action.
Wait -- what? So the people that were on the boat, that the boat belonged to, in international waters, weren't defending themselves from an IDF boarding action? The whole situation is sticky, obviously, but I don't think you can say one was the defender, one the aggressor. Not in this situation. Like I said, and what blankall expounded upon, I think it was a combination of both sides acting.
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Lets wait and see, there were reports of assembled and deployable weapons. I'm pretty well guessing that once that ship reaches port its going to be ripped down to the bottom. If there were no weapons shipments there Israel will take a black eye on this. However neither side is on the side of angels.
If there were assembled and deployable weapons on board, I would have to think they would have used them on the Israelis if they had been looking for a fight. They sure did seem riled up enough to go at it with armed commandos with pipes and knives. I just can't see there being weapons coming from Turkey.
In the end, this can't help Israel's deteriorating position on the world stage, especially with them now further alienating the Ottomans.
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Since the people on the boat didn't have guns, and we don't have any real evidence that they were part of Hamas, I'd say at this point, no.
I'm talking throughout the conflict, not just this one incident, both sides are fairly professional in terms of poking the other side with a stick.
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Originally Posted by HPLovecraft
Wait -- what? So the people that were on the boat, that the boat belonged to, in international waters, weren't defending themselves from an IDF boarding action? The whole situation is sticky, obviously, but I don't think you can say one was the defender, one the aggressor. Not in this situation. Like I said, and what blankall expounded upon, I think it was a combination of both sides acting.
Sure, I never disagreed with that, however the IDF has announced the blockade, they gave the options of search or heading to port so that the ship could be searched, or boarding and searching. On the other boats, there was no violence when the IDF boarded to inspect, on this one particular boat there was. I'd really like to know why that is.
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Originally Posted by HPLovecraft
If there were assembled and deployable weapons on board, I would have to think they would have used them on the Israelis if they had been looking for a fight. They sure did seem riled up enough to go at it with armed commandos with pipes and knives. I just can't see there being weapons coming from Turkey.
I'm going by what was stated this morning, the story could have changed by now. Hammas seem to be experts at getting weapons into Palestine, I don't think it matters if the boats had come from Turkey or New York, there's always the possibility of weapons being placed on that boat at some point between loading and being interdicted.
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Originally Posted by HPLovecraft
In the end, this can't help Israel's deteriorating position on the world stage, especially with them now further alienating the Ottomans.
I agree, Israel is really damned, they can't win.
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Real hard to assess who was in the wrong when the real truth will probably never come out.
If Israel warned the boat not to enter then I think they have a point. As violent as they were you dont defy the orders of Israel. Even if Israel was in the wrong then I think you deal with it in a legal way rather than defy their orders and risk a conflict that you can not win.
It's not a easy situation to be in. That's why I never take for granted that we live in one of the most peaceful countries in the world.
Like always, the Israeli response is so out of proportion as to be criminal.
What I get from this is your opinion of Israel is so entrenched that I don't even need to consider what you have to say because you won't consider anything alternative to you previous position.
So the body count is 9 or 10 on one side, zero on the other. Yeah, the IDF was in fear for their lives.
Sounds like the Vancouver RCMP. "he came at me with a stapler, I had to kill him".
Like always, the Israeli response is so out of proportion as to be criminal.
You can see video footage of dozens of men swarming and beating soldiers on the ground with pipes. I can easily see how things got out of control.
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Originally Posted by longsuffering
Irael illegally boarded a humanitarian vessel in international waters, then shot and killed people armed with clubs They are worse than pirates.
Illegal? Countries don't have the rights to board ships headed into their waters anymore?
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Originally Posted by longsuffering
Israel is on the road to becoming a pariah state. Even their staunchest allies haven't rushed to their defense. Netanyahu is a war mongerer and terrorist.
Israel's haters are going to hate them no matter what they do. All you accomplish with this attitude is to push Israel further away from the bargaining table.
Really? They are soldiers doing thier job just like Canadian soldiers in Afganistan.
I take offense to this as my son-in-law is Israeli Special Forces. My daughter met him while travelling in India and they married 2 yrs later.
Your generalizations couldn't be further from the truth as we meet many members of his 'unit' when we were there for the wedding.
Exactly. People that spew that kind of crap about Israelis have probably never met one, let alone one from the IDF or a special forces unit.
I have had the privilege and the honor of meeting some of them and spending two weeks getting to know them. Unbelievably humble and gentle, well-intentioned and extremely smart.
They don't even consider themselves as Jews. They're Israeli and that's all they identify with.
This whole incident was intentioned by the organizers of the flotilla to force Israel's hand. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. They publicly stated this too.
Last edited by Envitro; 05-31-2010 at 04:47 PM.
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What I get from this is your opinion of Israel is so entrenched that I don't even need to consider what you have to say because you won't consider anything alternative to you previous position.
They've got a bit of a track record proving his point. Look at their offensive on Lebanon. They leveled Beirut over homemade Quassam rockets and 3 abducted soldiers. Since 2005 roughly 10 times more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis.
The IDF's ongoing battle with Hamas and other groups is nothing, ideologically, like what is going on with Canadians in Afghanistan. It is not just doing your job when you believe the survival of your entire race is on the line every time you go out there, and you're launching missiles into housing complexes basically next door to your own abodes.
I have nothing against the Jewish religion or Jewish people in general, but I do take issue with a good few beliefs of the Zionist movement, especially when it comes to the forceful "transfer" of Arabs for the settlement of Jews. The IDF has done some awful, AWFUL things, and ordinary people have to rationalize them somehow, I suppose.
Doesn't mean your son-in law is a a radical Zionist, but there ARE some of them in the IDF. My hyperbole was used as a rhetorical device, just like when I said martyr wannabes for the other people on the ship -- which you didn't have an issue with.
Hey, I'm not the one painting with a wide brush here .I only commented on the one side because I've only met people from one side.
As to the rest, a soldier is a soldier, they are just following orders.
This video is kind of graphic, so watch at your own risk. No blood or gore, but beatings at a distance:
Questions I have after watching this: Where was the video taken from? A neighbouring ship -- and is it ACTUALLY of this boarding action? What happens BEFORE the video? We see it as a commando is about to land on the boat, where the people are clearly agitated. Why would the IDF decide to fast-rope soldiers down onto the boat one at a time when it seems pretty clear they're all extremely pissed and clearly have blunt weapons? In some reports, the Israeli's are saying the ship used live-fire before boarding, and in some they're saying it was after soldiers got on the boat, and the "aid workers" stole pistols from them. Which of those is it? And why did this person decide to put this God-awful music to this video?
Edit: Was this already posted? I didn't see it.
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Last edited by HPLovecraft; 05-31-2010 at 04:53 PM.
Questions I have after watching this: Where was the video taken from? A neighbouring ship -- and is it ACTUALLY of this boarding action? What happens BEFORE the video? We see it as a commando is about to land on the boat, where the people are clearly agitated. Why would the IDF decide to fast-rope soldiers down onto the boat one at a time when it seems pretty clear they're all extremely pissed and clearly have blunt weapons?
The Israelis were obviously not expecting a full scale riot. Are you suggesting that since the initial Israeli force was not strong enough, they brough the assaults on themselves or planned the riot?
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Originally Posted by HPLovecraft
In some reports, the Israeli's are saying the ship used live-fire before boarding, and in some they're saying it was after soldiers got on the boat, and the "aid workers" stole pistols from them. Which of those is it? And why did this person decide to put this God-awful music to this video?
The only peolpe who can answer that question are the people who shot the weapons (assuming it occured). How can the Israelies be expected to know exactly what happened in that kind of a mess.
The Israelis were obviously not expecting a full scale riot. Are you suggesting that since the initial Israeli force was not strong enough, they brough the assaults on themselves?
Lol, what? No, how do you get that out of that question? Maybe you're just used to arguing with straight-up Israeli haters, but I'm not one of them, thanks.
You can see everyone on the boat running around brandishing weapons before the soldier even lands on the boat. My question is, was there something going on before they started video-taping that caused this kind of quick, risky action on behalf of the Israelis, and the riot that took place ON THAT BOAT ONLY out of the entire flotilla.
There is obviously something going on here. It's not as if that boat was composed of a bunch of dirty Hamas fresh out of the desert. Not sure about all of the ethnicities, but the Germans released a statement mentioning there were three of 'em on that boat, too.
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The only peolpe who can answer that question are the people who shot the weapons (assuming it occured). How can the Israelies be expected to know exactly what happened in that kind of a mess.
I guess I just assumed the Israelis would be able to tell if their helicopter flying in the air was being shot at it by bullets or not.
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"An adherent of homeopathy has no brain. They have skull water with the memory of a brain."
Some interesting notes from this AP article - THESTAR
- The ships stopped off at Cyprus -"Before the ships set sail from waters off Cyprus on Sunday" - perhaps something happened between Turkey & Cyprus.
- Ample warning was given to come to a peaceful and equitable solution.
Stop off in Ashdod, we'll look around, confiscate bomb making material (yes, cement and nails are good for building homes, but they also make great shrapnel for bombs - nails dipped in rat poison have been recovered from bomb sites), we'll let you carry on with the foods and medicines.
- one side says they were not expecting violence - "In a sign the soldiers didn’t anticipate such fierce resistance, two commandos told The Associated Press that the primary weapons were guns that fired paintballs — a nonlethal weapon that can be used to subdue crowds."
(these will be chemical weapons by morning news time.)
- "Israel has allowed ships through" before the January offensive.
- it is well known that Israeli forces use excessive force at times, but it is just as true that Hamas and their allies (as unwitting as they may be) stop at nothing to try to smuggle weapons into Gaza.
- this is the only article I have seen that notes that Egypt is a willing and active partner in the blockade of Gaza.
To me it is clear - spend less time poking the bear and more time fixing your own tent. The less you poke the bear the more he is willing to let pass.
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Some interesting notes from this AP article - THESTAR
- The ships stopped off at Cyprus -"Before the ships set sail from waters off Cyprus on Sunday" - perhaps something happened between Turkey & Cyprus.
- Ample warning was given to come to a peaceful and equitable solution.
Stop off in Ashdod, we'll look around, confiscate bomb making material (yes, cement and nails are good for building homes, but they also make great shrapnel for bombs - nails dipped in rat poison have been recovered from bomb sites), we'll let you carry on with the foods and medicines.
- one side says they were not expecting violence - "In a sign the soldiers didn’t anticipate such fierce resistance, two commandos told The Associated Press that the primary weapons were guns that fired paintballs — a nonlethal weapon that can be used to subdue crowds."
(these will be chemical weapons by morning news time.)
- "Israel has allowed ships through" before the January offensive.
- it is well known that Israeli forces use excessive force at times, but it is just as true that Hamas and their allies (as unwitting as they may be) stop at nothing to try to smuggle weapons into Gaza.
- this is the only article I have seen that notes that Egypt is a willing and active partner in the blockade of Gaza.
To me it is clear - spend less time poking the bear and more time fixing your own tent. The less you poke the bear the more he is willing to let pass.
They went on the ship with PAINTBALL guns? This seems extremely unelikely, beyond the obvious reasons. On Haaretz it says this:
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An Israeli military spokesman said some of the commandos were equipped with paintball guns but the non-lethal weapons were not enough against activists who charged in with batons.
Then goes on to say this...
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"They jumped me, hit me with clubs and bottles and stole my rifle," one of the commandos said. "I pulled out my pistol and had no choice but to shoot."
So since the rioters stole his paintball rifle he had no choice but to shoot them with his pistol?
Yeah, that doesn't seem right.
The IDF means business. They don't fast-rope down onto ships with bloody paintball guns.
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"An adherent of homeopathy has no brain. They have skull water with the memory of a brain."
Maybe you missed the part where he was getting beaten with clubs and bottles.
Maybe you missed the ludicrous assertion they landed on the ship with paintball guns.
The soldier said they beat him and stole his rifle. Obviously, he's going to start shooting at that point, most soldiers would. I find it funny, however, that some random source says they landed with paintball guns, and then the soldier goes on to say they stole his rifle (which is now apparently a paintball gun), which took part in his deciding to shoot them.
Sorry if I have trouble believing they boarded the ship with paintball guns when the ships they wanted to board refused to go to port to be checked out in the first place.
Israeli military news releases are as much of a joy to read as Russian ones.
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"An adherent of homeopathy has no brain. They have skull water with the memory of a brain."
Israel's haters are going to hate them no matter what they do. All you accomplish with this attitude is to push Israel further away from the bargaining table.
Sure, that is true, but as a result of this latest incident, many of Israel's friends are going to rethink their continued support. Is Israel even at the bargaining table?
Maybe you missed the ludicrous assertion they landed on the ship with paintball guns.
Not so ludicrous. The article clearly stated that they can be used to help "subdue crowds" and they though this would be a mostly European crowd who are not used to seeing guns let alone being shot at. If you were in a crowd at Olympic Square and a cop started shooting a paintball gun and you suddenly found yourself covered in red paint,you would probably freeze for a few moments.
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The soldier said they beat him and stole his rifle. Obviously, he's going to start shooting at that point, most soldiers would. I find it funny, however, that some random source says they landed with paintball guns, and then the soldier goes on to say they stole his rifle (which is now apparently a paintball gun), which took part in his deciding to shoot them.
Some random source - Two of the commandos and the Israeli Military spokesperson are not random source, they are just sources you choose not to believe.
Maybe you missed the ludicrous assertion they landed on the ship with paintball guns.
The soldier said they beat him and stole his rifle. Obviously, he's going to start shooting at that point, most soldiers would. I find it funny, however, that some random source says they landed with paintball guns, and then the soldier goes on to say they stole his rifle (which is now apparently a paintball gun), which took part in his deciding to shoot them.
Sorry if I have trouble believing they boarded the ship with paintball guns when the ships they wanted to board refused to go to port to be checked out in the first place.
Israeli military news releases are as much of a joy to read as Russian ones.
From what I've read they had both paintball guns and hand guns. The hand guns were not drawn until later. It's what happened in between the landing with the paint ball guns and the drawing of the hand guns where things get fuzzy.
Sure, that is true, but as a result of this latest incident, many of Israel's friends are going to rethink their continued support. Is Israel even at the bargaining table?
Israel is not at the bargaining table - mainly because they don't want to sit there alone. The Palestinian Authority refuses to come to the table without any concessions.
