Report: Israel storms Gaza-bound aid ships

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Maybe they weren't aware they would be killed when they resisted?

What do you expect to happen if you resist against a military force who has previously requested your ship to stop, a request which was ignored to the best of my knowledge. If people don't see that this has the potential to result in deadly force being used then they are only fooling themselves.

[Pastiche]

Originally Posted by Azure

If the reports saying the protesters grabbed weapons from the commandos than the commandos had every right to fight back.

In fact they had every right to use all the firepower necessary to defend themselves.

What right did they have being on the boat in the first place?

That's like saying a burglar has every right to defend himself when he's being attacked by a homeowner.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

What do you expect to happen if you resist against a military force who has previously requested your ship to stop, a request which was ignored to the best of my knowledge. If people don't see that this has the potential to result in deadly force being used then they are only fooling themselves.

This blockade has been in place since 2007. These protesters knew exactly what they were up against.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not if the people on the ship were given clear orders to not proceed and they didn't listen.

Yes.

I don't think I'd describe myself as pro-Palestinian because that implies being anti-Israeli, and I fully support Israel's right to exist and a Jewish state. I just happen not to like a large number of things about Israel, the state, not the concept.

Still, this boils down to: ship was told to turn back. It did not. The military proceeded to do what any military would do in that situation.

I think it's a bit rich to paint Israel as the victim of an attack here, especially with no real evidence of weapons being on board, but it's plenty more ridiculous to suggest that the 'humanitarians' were some innocent victims. They knew exactly what they were getting into, and they clearly had some messiah complex where they figured they were going to fight the good fight and bring supplies to Gaza.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

What right did they have being on the boat in the first place?

That's like saying a burglar has every right to defend himself when he's being attacked by a homeowner.

If the burglar was the police who were checking on the homeowner after there were reports that the homeowner was planning on attacking a police station - then yeah sure, that analogy will work.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

What right did they have being on the boat in the first place?

That's like saying a burglar has every right to defend himself when he's being attacked by a homeowner.

Israel had declared the blocade, had warned these boats that they would be boarded, had given them alternatives so that Israel could search the cargo since Palestine crazies are always looking for ways to smuggle in weapons.

Sure, you can defend yourself, but to me its kind of a stupidity move to do it against a heavily armed boarding team.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Azure

This blockade has been in place since 2007. These protesters knew exactly what they were up against.

It was a stunt for publicity reasons. They should have quietly surrendered and then whined in the media about the outrage of Israel stopping humanitarian aid. Instead, they, or some of them, foolishly attacked trained men with guns with predictable results. Did they do it because there was something hidden on the boat or because they are idiots? I don't know - I guess we'll find out fairly soon.

[FlamesAddiction]

Sometimes countries have to do what they have to do.

Around 1995, Canada boarded and arrested Spanish fisherman in international waters because they were allegedly over-fishing. In my mind, it was the right decision to make. International waters should not be a haven for criminals.

Having said that, I don't think we have enough information to know exactly what happened. This situation sounds like there is a lot more to it as there was obviously a lot of resistance.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Israel had declared the blocade, had warned these boats that they would be boarded, had given them alternatives so that Israel could search the cargo since Palestine crazies are always looking for ways to smuggle in weapons.

Sure, you can defend yourself, but to me its kind of a stupidity move to do it against a heavily armed boarding team.

I don't know if this boat was just defending itself. The video clearly shows at least two IDF soldiers on the ground being beaten by pipes and other blunt objects. A third one arrives from above. He is also being beaten by a pipe. Despite the fact he is armed, he does not use his gun for anything other than physically blocking the pipe.

Quite frankly I don't know what these protestors expected to happen. If me and my closest 100 friends swarmed an army patrol and then stripped them of their weapons to use on the soldiers, I would expect them to use deadly force at some point.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

It was a stunt for publicity reasons. They should have quietly surrendered and then whined in the media about the outrage of Israel stopping humanitarian aid. Instead, they, or some of them, foolishly attacked trained men with guns with predictable results. Did they do it because there was something hidden on the boat or because they are idiots? I don't know - I guess we'll find out fairly soon.

Nobody ever accussed Hammas of being stupid, they might be a death cult but they're not dumb.

They want a massive body count that they can parade out and show off videos of. I still remember in the last war that Hammas recovered the same dead person from three different sites.

They're extremely media saavy for a terrorist group.

I would like to see more facts before I decide, but this whole thing smells like a setup if it was only one boat that violently resisted.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

What right did they have being on the boat in the first place?

That's like saying a burglar has every right to defend himself when he's being attacked by a homeowner.

Are you forgetting the part where this 'boat' was trying to break through a blockade?

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Nobody ever accussed Hammas of being stupid, they might be a death cult but they're not dumb.

They want a massive body count that they can parade out and show off videos of. I still remember in the last war that Hammas recovered the same dead person from three different sites.

They're extremely media saavy for a terrorist group.

I would like to see more facts before I decide, but this whole thing smells like a setup if it was only one boat that violently resisted.

I'm pretty sure I hate Hamas more than anything else in the world.

but hey, at least it wasn't a landslide. I'm trying to be optimistic here.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Azure

Are you forgetting the part where this 'boat' was trying to break through a blockade?

I think he's arguing the legality of the blockade to begin with.

[HPLovecraft]

A nation known for being trigger-happy, and people are just assuming they were the victims? When it comes to Israel, I believe about as much as they say as I would when the Soviets would release info.

I want more information to come out before I condemn either side. As is the most common situation, it was likely mistakes made on both sides. Over-aggressive brainwashed Zionist commandos versus messiah-complex, martyr wannabe "peace" activists.

If the "humanitarian" workers attacked me with pipes and such, I'd open fire, too. If, however, a bunch of souped-up commandos opened fire on me, I'd attack 'em, too. So it can go both ways.

We need more info. Also, there have been no reports of there being firearms on the ship. Just pipes and knives.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I think he's arguing the legality of the blockade to begin with.

"...since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

[peter12]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

A nation known for being trigger-happy, and people are just assuming they were the victims? When it comes to Israel, I believe about as much as they say as I would when the Soviets would release info.

I want more information to come out before I condemn either side. As is the most common situation, it was likely mistakes made on both sides. Over-aggressive brainwashed Zionist commandos versus messiah-complex, martyr wannabe "peace" activists.

If the "humanitarian" workers attacked me with pipes and such, I'd open fire, too. If, however, a bunch of souped-up commandos opened fire on me, I'd attack 'em, too. So it can go both ways.

We need more info. Also, there have been no reports of there being firearms on the ship. Just pipes and knives.

Melians. Well then, if you risk so much to retain your empire, and your subjects to get rid of it, it were surely great baseness and cowardice in us who are still free not to try everything that can be tried, before submitting to your yoke.

Athenians. Not if you are well advised, the contest not being an equal one, with honour as the prize and shame as the penalty, but a question of self-preservation and of not resisting those who are far stronger than you are.


I think more people should read Thucydides.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

A nation known for being trigger-happy, and people are just assuming they were the victims? When it comes to Israel, I believe about as much as they say as I would when the Soviets would release info.

I want more information to come out before I condemn either side. As is the most common situation, it was likely mistakes made on both sides. Over-aggressive brainwashed Zionist commandos versus messiah-complex, martyr wannabe "peace" activists.

If the "humanitarian" workers attacked me with pipes and such, I'd open fire, too. If, however, a bunch of souped-up commandos opened fire on me, I'd attack 'em, too. So it can go both ways.

We need more info. Also, there have been no reports of there being firearms on the ship. Just pipes and knives.

I agree definitely more info required.

As far as firearms, the IDF is saying the firearms were taken from the downed Israeli soldiers. They are saying at least one soldier was shot before they opened fire.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by blankall

I agree definitely more info required.

As far as firearms, the IDF is saying the firearms were taken from the downed Israeli soldiers. They are saying at least one soldier was shot before they opened fire.

In the video I posted, you can see that is not the case.

Gunshot victims are on the boat before it is boarded.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

In the video I posted, you can see that is not the case.

Gunshot victims are on the boat before it is boarded.

Yeah it looks like they were shooting at them from another ship. Hard to say exactly what happened. Looks like they resisted the Israelis boarding the ship in international waters and got shot and killed as a result.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

A nation known for being trigger-happy, and people are just assuming they were the victims? When it comes to Israel, I believe about as much as they say as I would when the Soviets would release info.

I want more information to come out before I condemn either side. As is the most common situation, it was likely mistakes made on both sides. Over-aggressive brainwashed Zionist commandos versus messiah-complex, martyr wannabe "peace" activists.

If the "humanitarian" workers attacked me with pipes and such, I'd open fire, too. If, however, a bunch of souped-up commandos opened fire on me, I'd attack 'em, too. So it can go both ways.

We need more info. Also, there have been no reports of there being firearms on the ship. Just pipes and knives.

Really? They are soldiers doing thier job just like Canadian soldiers in Afganistan.
I take offense to this as my son-in-law is Israeli Special Forces. My daughter met him while travelling in India and they married 2 yrs later.
Your generalizations couldn't be further from the truth as we meet many members of his 'unit' when we were there for the wedding.