Tsuu T'ina members to vote on SW Ring Road today

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

What a rip off!! I cannot believe it is ONLY $275 million! I would say no to that pittance too!

So....the average native family...they make what......$15k-20k/year? Less? yeah I would say the $275,000.00 is pretty sweet.

So......if the Natives get paid to have to road built on their land does that also mean they have to pay if they want to drive/lay on it?

That money will drastically improve the lives of a lot of people. A few will squander it, but that's to be expected, no matter where they live or what colour their skin.

I don't think a toll booth set up on the reserve is out of the question, either.

Edit: I've also heard rumblings that Calgary police and EMS won't respond to the Casino if something happens there and that it has to be the band police. No idea

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by Jayems

That money will drastically improve the lives of a lot of people. A few will squander it, but that's to be expected, no matter where they live or what colour their skin.

I don't think a toll booth set up on the reserve is out of the question, either.

Edit: I've also heard rumblings that Calgary police and EMS won't respond to the Casino if something happens there and that it has to be the band police. No idea

Not on city property so the city doesn't really care. The casino isn't going to pay city taxes so no benefits from the city. There is a mutual agreement though that EMS will attend (and now that's probably just the line of work considering their provincial). I know Calgary Fire and CPS won't attend though. If that thing ever catches on fire it'll be burned to the ground...closest fire station is probably 20 km away.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Would you apply this same sort of logic to another group?

Say for some strange reason this road has to veer off into Canyon Meadows Golf Club and roar over the 8th fairway and 9th green. The city offers them a pile of cash and some other land as compensation. The members vote on it but say no.

"My dad was a member here, and my grandpa too" some guy says. "I can't let them do this to our beloved golf course".

So, would you be okay with the city cutting off their water supply so the grass dies? If they won't let us build a road, there is no reason to let them profit from our existing infrastructure.

Uhh, I think this actually did happen to Canyon Meadows and the City just expropriates the land. They had to do a bunch of golf hole renovations (not sure at who's cost) to accomodate future Anderson/14th Street expansion.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGuy

I have worked downtown in the Oil and Gas industry for about 20 years. That includes some non Oil and Gas industry IT industries.

I have worked with many many natives who were very good at their jobs. So many that I wouldn't be able to count them all.

So, I then have a question. Does that make your opinion wrong or am I wrong?

It means you're not good at counting.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Uhh, I think this actually did happen to Canyon Meadows and the City just expropriates the land. They had to do a bunch of golf hole renovations (not sure at who's cost) to accomodate future Anderson/14th Street expansion.

Ba ha. Really? Well there goes that.

The thing is, the land in question is theirs. They signed the deal (that was probably written by us) and now "we" want to break it. If they won't let us break it, the suggestion is we should punish them for it.

If two people sign a contract and one guy decides he wants to change it to his advantage, is the other guy in the wrong to not go along with him?

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGuy

I have worked downtown in the Oil and Gas industry for about 20 years. That includes some non Oil and Gas industry IT industries.

I have worked with many many natives who were very good at their jobs. So many that I wouldn't be able to count them all.

So, I then have a question. Does that make your opinion wrong or am I wrong?

We both have had different experiences, and our differing opinions/thoughts are formulated from those experiences. So really, neither of us are wrong.

[iggnuef]

Why can't we all just get along? Why not leave the tough issues to the politions?

Instead, we should settle our differences over a nice glass of mouthwash and have a couple WD40 shooters......

[flip]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Absolutely, this should be the only course of action considered. The whole "burial ground" thing is a bunch of garbage. The vast majority of these people live in extreme poverty, have extreme substance abuse problems and do not have regular, full time employment but you're telling me their primary concern is the building of a road over great, great, Grandpa? Ok, if that is the case these people need to get their bloody head's on straight. ANY money coming into that reserve should be looked at as a godsend and used accordingly.

It is all about the money, I guarantee this road will get built we will just have sweeten the pot, that is what they want, not for the road to go around Grandpa.

Originally Posted by KTrain

Nice broad strokes.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by jar_e

If that thing ever catches on fire it'll be burned to the ground...closest fire station is probably 20 km away.

More like 2.
Fire Station 20.

[I_am_Beast]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Absolutely, this should be the only course of action considered. The whole "burial ground" thing is a bunch of garbage. The vast majority of these people live in extreme poverty, have extreme substance abuse problems and do not have regular, full time employment but you're telling me their primary concern is the building of a road over great, great, Grandpa? Ok, if that is the case these people need to get their bloody head's on straight. ANY money coming into that reserve should be looked at as a godsend and used accordingly.

It is all about the money, I guarantee this road will get built we will just have sweeten the pot, that is what they want, not for the road to go around Grandpa.

Agreed, the entire stance of " burial grounds " , " medicine plants " is bullshiot... they had no problem with the military using the land to blow shiot up and weapons tests...

if it doesn't pass..... block all access to the city from their lands...not only are they getting 240 million for 400 hec of land, that are also getting 2000 more hec on top of that...

my POV is enough of this flaoting crap, they want to be self governed...then let them fail or succeed by their own hand..no more hand outs... ( yaa yaa Flame away )

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Originally Posted by arsenal

More like 2.
Fire Station 20.

CFD doesn't service the reserve, it was mentioned a few times.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Ba ha. Really? Well there goes that.

The thing is, the land in question is theirs. They signed the deal (that was probably written by us) and now "we" want to break it. If they won't let us break it, the suggestion is we should punish them for it.

If two people sign a contract and one guy decides he wants to change it to his advantage, is the other guy in the wrong to not go along with him?

Haha. I was wondering if you used that example because it did actually happen?

Well, I see where you're coming from, but from my point of view, you or I can buy land, sign a deal with Land Titles, and if the City changes their minds and needs the land for some purpose (i.e. west LRT leg or new roads or whatever) they basically buy our land/house out from under us through expropriation. And through the expropriation process, you and I might not receive the true/fair value for our land. And if we flat out don't want to leave, well... they really give you no choice in the matter. You're out.

I believe there was some media/backlash about this for the Northern portion of the ring road. I don't remember exact details but the Province expropriated a large farm and it sounded like they really ripped the owner off (especially considering it was in the height of the real estate craze). She had a bunch of horses on her land as well and they had nowhere to go, etc etc. It was newsworthy for awhile - honestly I'm not sure what the final resolution was. But the bottom line was she didn't want to leave AND she didn't agree with the value they offered for her land, but the expropriation went ahead regardless.

So... I guess my point is that, yes, it sucks that the City/Province/Feds are doing a 180 on the treaty/land agreement. But from what I can tell the Tsuu Tina isn't on the receiving end of anything worse than what Joe Blow Calgarian would run up against if a new LRT line was barreling down on his house. Arguably with the money, extra land, casino deal, etc they are getting perhaps more than a fair deal.

Edit: First Lady has a more concise point below as well regarding the First Nations lands vs. the rules for "regular" lands.

[I_am_Beast]

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteEbola

CFD doesn't service the reserve, it was mentioned a few times.

Odd i've seen them in there a few times...

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Uhh, I think this actually did happen to Canyon Meadows and the City just expropriates the land. They had to do a bunch of golf hole renovations (not sure at who's cost) to accomodate future Anderson/14th Street expansion.

The difference being that government cannot expropriate First Nations land without due consideration and compensation.

Some say they are the only group in Canada that have "true" property rights.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteEbola

CFD doesn't service the reserve, it was mentioned a few times.

Unless they make an agreement with the City and the CFD like they have with EMS.
Seems silly to me that they would risk a large cash cow as the Casino to fire, when there is a CFD station 2km away. But I guess it was built with our money, so maybe they don't care either.

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Originally Posted by I_am_Beast

Odd i've seen them in there a few times...

I was just going by the post that was partially quoted and not fully read, they could service the reserve just the poster I quoted didn't seem to capture the essence of the post they quoted...

Originally Posted by jar_e

Not on city property so the city doesn't really care. The casino isn't going to pay city taxes so no benefits from the city. There is a mutual agreement though that EMS will attend (and now that's probably just the line of work considering their provincial). I know Calgary Fire and CPS won't attend though. If that thing ever catches on fire it'll be burned to the ground...closest fire station is probably 20 km away.

[I_am_Beast]

Originally Posted by First Lady

The difference being that government cannot expropriate First Nations land without due consideration and compensation.

Some say they are the only group in Canada that have "true" property rights.

thus what happened in the maritimes?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Ba ha. Really? Well there goes that.

The thing is, the land in question is theirs. They signed the deal (that was probably written by us) and now "we" want to break it. If they won't let us break it, the suggestion is we should punish them for it.

If two people sign a contract and one guy decides he wants to change it to his advantage, is the other guy in the wrong to not go along with him?

Ahh, but your second paragraph rather argues my point as well. We've been negotiating with the T'suu Tina over land rights to build a ring road since before they were commonly called the T'suu Tina. It all comes down to bargaining power, really. Every offer the City/Province makes invariably comes back with "we want more". Ok, fine. We as a city do not appreciate the added traffic your casino creates on Glenmore Trail, so we're going to block it off to do what is best for our citizens.

If the reserve has no desire to accomodate the city, then I see absolutely no reason why the city should accomodate the reserve. Block access to their money pit until they come to the bargaining table in good faith.

The greed is even more apparent up in Sturgeon Lake, where the residents are demanding so much money to buy a right of way to twin the final section of the 43 that the province found it was cheaper to build around the reserve.

But lets face it, one of the fatal flaws of the reserve system is the fact that extorting nearby governments is probably the most reliable source of income for some. All that accomplishes is bad blood between neighbours, and a continuing distrust of each "race" by the other - and believe me, it goes both ways. Many reserve natives are at least as racist as they argue the white man to be. And that problem will always exist so long as the reserve system is in place.

[Howie_16]

Originally Posted by flip

I don't get why we have to respect them when they don't even respect themselves.

Yah, I don't like 'Rider fans that much myself.

[justafan]

Originally Posted by flip

I intentionally posted it like that waiting for this exact response. I can't believe it came so quickly. I grew up in Regina, you'll have to excuse my hatred for natives. I'm sure there are some decent natives around, I've just never seen or met any of them.

Now your post should go "but it is all the white man's fault they are like that, it is systematic and not their fault, we need to try and help them not make things worse".

I think our Flames player Bourque seems like a "decent" fellow. I get a kick out of reading some of the off topic threads, but I knew this one was going to turn into a racist one. I'd introduce you to my dad who is "decent" too, but he lives in Saskatchewan.