2014 Training Camp Cuts. UPD: Oct 5 - Baertschi, Jooris and Ortio cut

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by FBI

Is it possible that there is a silver lining about Bennett here? We all think he needs to go back to junior to beef up, but is it possible management doesn't necessarily agree and wants to see him in 9 games once he's healthy?

Don't think so. I think he's only with the club because of his nagging injuries. Once he's healthy I think he returns to junior.

Could be wrong though.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

You have been on here post after post stating that management does not have "established criteria" and the fanbase reads too much into their slogans and statements about competition, spots being open, et cetera.

Not exactly. I have meant to say that we are not privy to management's established criteria.

But I will agree with you that Baertschi seems to have been possibly confused about how he ought to interpret what the team was telling him. However, I doubt it. I suspect most likely that Baertschi has failed to recognise that he is not the only player who was making the same—or in some cases even more impressive—advancements.

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

...So go ahead and put it all on him. Maybe you're right. But I think you should acknowledge that there is also a risk that we have been and continue to mismanage him as a prospect and we see him blossom into the player he could have been here somewhere else.

This would require me to concede that the Flames have "mismanaged" Baertschi's development in the first place. If they did, it was probably early on when he was groomed in the media spotlight to be the team's saviour. If he is struggling now, it might have something to do with how the previous management foisted expectations upon him that he was not yet equipped to satisfy.

Of course, in the end we may never know...

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Except that Stajan and this crew of vets gets us to 27th place. So while you get people saying look he can score up to 20 goals, that's great but he is part of a bigger problem where you have a team that doesn't win as much as it needs to.

Also the discussion is actually quite different this year. This is the first year in a long time we've had a large pool of very good prospects that are probably NHL caliber, yet because we needlessly signed people like Setoguchi, now get to play in the AHL. It just isn't the right message in my mind.

If you look at how this team has handled all of its' prospects over the last 20 years or so, it's done a very poor job of establishing NHLer's. To run around defending the same organizational behaviors therefore (sending kids down when they're actually ready), seems awfully strange.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm "running around" defending anything here, but I still doubt that Bärtschi had such an outstanding camp that we can without reservation say he deserves a spot over the competition.

It's not enough to be ready. You still have to prove that the team is better with you in the lineup.

[Machiavelli]

I just hope that management/coaches had a good talk with Sven about the demotion.

There's no reason why Baertschi should be "confused" if it was explained to him that though he made the required adjustments and had a good camp, there's only so many roster spots to go around, and that there's a great chance he'll find himself back up with the big club later this season.

[Textcritic]

^
I think we are all kidding ourselves if we imagine that the coaches did not have even an instinctive inkling about who might be on the opening night roster. Lots of names pencilled in. "Always earned, never given" means forcing their hand to the point that they have NO CHOICE but to erase a name and replace it with another. Gaudreau has effectively given Hartley no choice. I'm not convinced—even though Baertschi and Jooris both had a really good camp—that you can say the same for each of them.

[trackercowe]

Yeah I don't see what's the major malfunction here. Who really cares what the opening day roster looks like? Give Sven, Jooris, Ortio, and the rest some serious playing time in the AHL, and after a couple months if they deserve a spot in the NHL surely they'll get brought up (as injury replacements or call ups). The same thing happened last season, and yet many of our younger players still spent a good chunk of time with the Flames.

Monahan 75 games
Colborne 80 games
Bouma 78 games
Byron 47 games
Baertschi 26 games
Wotherspoon 14 games
Granlund 7 games (before his injury)
Agostino 8 games
Reinhart 8 games
Breen 9 games
Ortio 9 games
Hanowski 11 games
Knight 7 games
Van Brabant 6 games

That's a good chunk of games for players under the age of 25 who could have been in the AHL or other leagues at the time. We just need to be patient and let things run their course for a few months to see what happens to the likes of Setoguchi, Wideman, Jones, and Glencross. Even if the Flames don't run into injury issues again opportunities will open up for many of these guys more time this season with the Flames.

Just look what happened with Backlund, he wasn't a full timer until only a couple seasons ago (still a year older than Baertschi at the time), and in the long run I believe it was beneficial for Backlund's game. I fully expect Baertschi to be up with the Flames come Christmas if he can play well and remain healthy in Adirondack. He needs to try and remain in a positive mindset and Treliving and Burke need to assure him he's part of our long-term plans. It's not like he's the only top pick from 2011 that's been sent back to the AHL for the start of this season.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

I just hope that management/coaches had a good talk with Sven about the demotion.

There's no reason why Baertschi should be "confused" if it was explained to him that though he made the required adjustments and had a good camp, there's only so many roster spots to go around, and that there's a great chance he'll find himself back up with the big club later this season.

That would be nice but I suspect players don't necessarily get personal time with the coaches in these situations. Maybe a former first rounder is used to receiving more attention.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

That would be nice but I suspect players don't necessarily get personal time with the coaches in these situations. Maybe a former first rounder is used to receiving more attention.

You don't think they get even a short exit meeting upon delivery of the bad news? That would surprise me.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Except that Stajan and this crew of vets gets us to 27th place. So while you get people saying look he can score up to 20 goals, that's great but he is part of a bigger problem where you have a team that doesn't win as much as it needs to.

Also the discussion is actually quite different this year. This is the first year in a long time we've had a large pool of very good prospects that are probably NHL caliber, yet because we needlessly signed people like Setoguchi, now get to play in the AHL. It just isn't the right message in my mind.

If you look at how this team has handled all of its' prospects over the last 20 years or so, it's done a very poor job of establishing NHLer's. To run around defending the same organizational behaviors therefore (sending kids down when they're actually ready), seems awfully strange.

edit: this was in response to Henry above

Yes the team has had horrible prospect development but that clearly has changed drastically. The thing about Setogouchi is we have to play him, it would be unwise to sign a UFA and never give him one game. Jooris, Baertschi, Sieloff, Ferland, Granlund they'll all get a few games. If they can't stay on the team it's because they aren't good enough. It's complicated to manage a roster with so many different kinds of contracts.

I definitely have more faith now than the GM's that traded away our picks and the coaches that didn't practice the powerplay. Seems like the team really turned a corner in terms of developing their assets.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

You don't think they get even a short exit meeting upon delivery of the bad news? That would surprise me.

No, not necessarily. But players are hardly equal in this regard.

[The Fonz]

Baertschi's comment actually pisses me off. He didn't come into camp and earn a LW spot on the top 3 lines, and if he believes he did, he's delusional about his own play.

I agree he showed good effort, but he got 1 goal and 0 assists in 5GP this preseason, and it was a lucky/bad goal at that. If he wanted to steal 1 of those top 3 LW spots, he was going to have to be better than 1 of Raymond, Glencross, or Gaudreau, and he was not.

Stop pouting Baertschi. Go to the AHL, and get better.

[mile]

Remember how some expected Johnny to be sent down for the first quarter of the season? Wouldn't surprise me if that was the case with Baertschi.

He needs to show he can be dominant in the AHL first, because he never has.

[442scotty]

Svens comments are interesting considering that he would have had a meeting with management already before making them. You have to wonder what was said to make him say what he did.

I think that Sven is close. The only thing stopping Sven from making the team this year is Sven. He is his own worst enemy. He's a nice, sensitive guy and he thinks/worries too much. He has some good players to work with down in Addy and if he seizes the opportunity he will be up this year.

We have so many up and comers...might end up as trade bait fairly soon...

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Roster decisions are not locked in on October 5, dude. That's the point. Just because we ran out of pre-season games does not mean that the Treliving and Hartley aren't still evaluating. They still want to see if Setoguchi can do in the future what he used to in the past. He's going to get more time so they can answer that question. Setoguchi isn't in the same place as guys like Jooris and Baertschi are. Those two can still grow and improve in Adirondack while the team continues to evaluate. But Setoguchi is a one-and-done scenario. He goes on waivers and he's done with the club. All his making the opening day roster means is that they aren't willing to give up on him on the basis of an insignificant number of pre-season games.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

There is nothing he can prove in Adirondack. The Flames signed him with the hope that he can provide a little offence for the NHL team. He has to be on the NHL team to do this. The simple truth is, his history in the NHL is what earned him an extended look. But the play of guys like Jooris also leaves his footing insecure. I'm not going to worry about whether or not Setoguchi should be in the lineup until around game 10. But he has to produce.

He goes on waivers and he's done with the club? Why, because some other team picks him up? Not likely?

And he has nothing to prove in the AHL? How about proving he can still score? When people want to justify a demotion, they always talk about a guy going to the AHL and "re-finding his confidence". Well, that's exactly where he should be doing it. IMO, if Setoguchi was going to re-find the form he hasn't shown in years(!) he would have come. into camp in great shape, hungry, and would have blown the kids out of the water. But he did no such thing. He came in and looked like the has-been he's played like for years.

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Randy Sportak @SUNRandySportak
Baertschi: "I'm in-between being sad and just really confused.” Believes he did everything asked him since last season. #Flames

And here's the problem: a young guy who has promise and is a real asset to the organization does everything the organization asks of him, out performs Setoguchi, and yet gets sent down without even the chance to prove himself in the last preseason game; a chance Setoguchi got.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is a legitimate concern. The team can't just keep a spot open for him because of his emotional fragility, but at the same time, this looks like it could be his undoing. I sure hope he works his way through this, and becomes the player that he has the skills to be.

I feel bad for Baertschi. But not because I think he is being slighted or shortchanged. It's because he doesn't seem to understand how good he could be if he accepted adversity as a challenge instead of defeat.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

But in the end, that is entirely on Baertschi. The team can't set double standards for certain players and prospects based on whether or not their feelings are hurt.

That's all BS, IMO.

Baertschi took his adversity as a challenge: He spent the end of last season in the AHL, and, in response, came into camp in great shape and having done everything the organization asked of him. The Organization's response is to send him right back down while keeping at least one other guy who he out performed. And, as I said, without even giving him the last chance to perform that Setoguchi got. When you do everything asked of you, yet get passed over for those less deserving, you have every right to feel sad and confused. It's the natural, understandable, and expected result.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Setoguchi has been an every day NHLer for the past five full years—since back before Baertschi was even drafted—and has compiled a resume that includes over 400 NHL games. Are you seriously suggesting that Beartschi should feel slighted for his AHL assignment when a player with +350 games and +100 goals to his credit is still with the team? Come on.

When that NHL-er has done nothing in years to show he belonged in the NHL, and did nothing in camp to show that will change. Yeah, Baertschi has a right to be upset when he gets passed over for him.

Will the team look different three months from now? Maybe. But that doesn't mean players and fans shouldn't be upset about management's current decisions failing to adhere to the promises they made

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

Yeah I don't see what's the major malfunction here. Who really cares what the opening day roster looks like? Give Sven, Jooris, Ortio, and the rest some serious playing time in the AHL, and after a couple months if they deserve a spot in the NHL surely they'll get brought up (as injury replacements or call ups). The same thing happened last season, and yet many of our younger players still spent a good chunk of time with the Flames.

Monahan 75 games
Colborne 80 games
Bouma 78 games
Byron 47 games
Baertschi 26 games
Wotherspoon 14 games
Granlund 7 games (before his injury)
Agostino 8 games
Reinhart 8 games
Breen 9 games
Ortio 9 games
Hanowski 11 games
Knight 7 games
Van Brabant 6 games

That's a good chunk of games for players under the age of 25 who could have been in the AHL or other leagues at the time. We just need to be patient and let things run their course for a few months to see what happens to the likes of Setoguchi, Wideman, Jones, and Glencross. Even if the Flames don't run into injury issues again opportunities will open up for many of these guys more time this season with the Flames.

Just look what happened with Backlund, he wasn't a full timer until only a couple seasons ago (still a year older than Baertschi at the time), and in the long run I believe it was beneficial for Backlund's game. I fully expect Baertschi to be up with the Flames come Christmas if he can play well and remain healthy in Adirondack. He needs to try and remain in a positive mindset and Treliving and Burke need to assure him he's part of our long-term plans. It's not like he's the only top pick from 2011 that's been sent back to the AHL for the start of this season.

Your numbers also tell a different story. Monohan, Colborne, Bouma, Baertschi (initially) and Byron (eventually) all got extensive playing time because there were spots open on the roster. The rest got temporary time due to injury or the one veteran moved (Stempniak). Cammi and Westgarth were let go after the season but 3 new vets were brought in so there is no net room created. Big difference between this year and last in terms of opportunity. Last year 4 new players played more than half the season without needing to punt a vet and all 4 succeeded. Why not take your chances trying the same again????

[Savvy27]

I, for one, would like to hear the entire Baertschi interview and not come to a conclusion on his character based on a tweet.

[Table 5]

Really sorry to hear this about Beartschi and Jooris.

The Flames really have to be careful about throwing these cornball "always earned never given" mantras around. Some players actually might think they mean it. I think this is the type of stuff that can really sour players in the long-term...they would've been better off saying nothing instead of trumpeting this all preseason and then not following through. Don't BS the fans and don't BS the players.

I honestly think Baertschi would be better off with another team at this stage...we've clearly screwed him up. Yes, he's more fragile mentally than others, but it seems like he's been mishandled from the start. Feaster gave him way too much spotlight at the beginning that elevated his, and our, expectations to unreasonable levels....and then Hartley did the complete opposite and never really gave him a chance. He kept playing the guy on the 3rd and 4th line and kept expecting him to be somebody else. Then he played with Monahan, had a ton of chemistry....and then was taken off that line and eventually sent down when he wasn't producing on the 3rd/4th line. This year, he does everything we ask, and plays more responsibly, and then gets sent down again because we need to keep some schlub UFA so Treliving can save face.

Teams always talk about putting players in a position to succeed. I feel like the Flames keep putting Sven in a position to fail. I'd be pretty sad and confused myself.

[Caged Great]

I'm pleased by the decision. A lot of our guys are undoubtedly close, but it doesn't hurt them to spend more time in the A to work on things. Waivers aren't an issue, so what's the problem.

[Tyler]

What a whiney little baby.

Guy got 1 flukey goal all preseason and is confused why he didn't make the team?

Go to the AHL and show why you deserve to be a full time NHLer you neutral, chocolate loving, yoddler

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You mean like Gaudreau?

Or Monahan and Baertschi last year?

Or Bouma and Brodie the prior year?

Or Backlund prior to that?

There could be several next year (Bennett, Poirier, our 1st, Wotherspoon, Sieloff) so they better get plenty of ice-time this year

What veterans did the Flames either put on waivers or trade to make room for the players that you have listed?